3D-Pangel

I got an email today from Insydium that contained an interview with Hayden Martin. Hayden made this startling statement in the article: Well, we all knew it was necessary for Insydium to do make XP GPU enabled, but this is the first time I have seen a statement about it in print. Is this something commonly known in Insydium forums or Discord channel? If so, have they posted anything about recommended GPU's for XP? I would assume it is nVidia branded so is there a minimum recommended GPU CUDA compute score (found here)? Rather startled to see this just casually mentioned in an email. Maybe I need to get out more? Dave

So a 14 year old kid made that Take-Out video in Blender? I am pretty sure that while Eevee helped, that kid has raw talent and could make anything look good in any software. When I was 14, the closest I got to animation was stop motion animation and had to build wire armatures if I wanted anything animated that was more exciting than Hot Wheels cars moving on their own. Kids are soooooo lucky these days. Dave

Just one other observation.....for a thread on R25 expectations, we are spending an unusual amount of time talking about Blender. In marketing, there is a concept called the "tipping point" - when one event creates a huge change in the market's perception of, interest in, and demand for a product. The tipping point for Blender was R2.8. The fact that this thread is talking just as much about Blender than a new release of C4D is further evidence of that chain reaction created by the release of R2.8. And Blender has only improved since R2.8 with grease pencil, improved mesh editing and further viewport and render improvements with Cycles X and Eevee. Can anyone else honestly tell me how Maxon can compete with Blender? The market momentum is already on Blender's side and the posts from those professionals in the industry talking about how their pipelines/projects need to be Blender compatible show that as well. C4D had some market momentum the year they released R20. R20 was just an awesome release, C4D won a technical Oscar that year and Maxon purchased Redshift. That all went into the crapper the next year when they introduced subscriptions - which, interestingly enough, was right after Blender released R2.8. So that year, late in 2018, was a rather critical nexus point for both companies. Blender's momentum started to increase while C4D's momentum started to decrease. Honestly, lost momentum is a tough thing to get back in the market place and Maxon should really pay attention to what is going on in the market and proceed with extreme caution. The focus now should be on how to hold on to customers rather than how to increase revenue. Yes...they may need to take a loss for a few years if they hope to survive this inflection point towards Blender. Redshift moving to subscription only was NOT a good move. Should Maxon announce that R25 is now subscription only (no more perpetual), then it will only be a matter of time. Dave

Perfectly said. This should be printed out in big bold type, framed and then placed in every Maxon conference room as one big %$&*#@ WAKE UP CALL! Dave

Nothing lasts forever so Insydium really should NOT tie themselves permanently to Maxon. Look at a difference 10 years can make in this industry. Look at Lightwave. Look at 3D Studio Max. They were once the software to own and envied by everyone. Now everyone just groans at the mere mention of their name ("Is Max still loading?" Groooooan!!! Will we ever get a Lightwave update? Groooann!!!) , You also now have Blender disrupting every market. Hobbyist's are looking at it as an alternative to every subscription plan out there. Professionals are also looking at it because the program's developers are still innovating and there is very little that Blender can't do. So no market is 100% safe when you have a very capable, rapidly developing and rapidly improving piece of software out there that is completely free....and Redshift is being ported over to it so even Maxon feels the heat Blender creates. Free is great after all and something people think about should they start questioning why are they renting software that no longer is keeping up with their needs. That is why I really hope Insydium has 4 things pinned to their development board for X-Particles: Tighter integration with Redshift (on par with the level of integration they had with Cycles 4D) GPU Acceleration Port over to Blender (though they are a bit too high priced for the average Blender user) Stand alone version Dave

What is buried in the Insydium fused announcement is that ONLY XP will be remaining perpetual in the new Fused plan. New plugins, like Meshform and Terraform, and Cycles 4D will go to subscription. Cycles 4D perpetual licenses are no longer being sold. If you have Cycles 4D now under maintenance then you can still get perpetual updates through the end of your original Cycles maintenance agreement. Redshift is also no longer perpetual.... So this is what would be a HUGE surprise for me with R25: Maxon offers indie licensing. R25 perpetual upgrades are still being offered. Yes...I would be more surprised if C4D stayed perpetual with R25. Sorry...but for me it is only a matter of time. If they can make that announcement for Redshift, then C4D cannot be far behind. Now, here is the big question: Will Maxon drop the price of its Redshift/C4D subscription bundle to soothe the crowd of removing C4D perpetual licensing? Would you jump on the C4D subscription if you knew it came with Redshift at the same price? I bring this up because I just find it funny that in June Maxon offers a 30% sale for a Redshift and C4D bundle. 30% off that bundled price drops the price to only $2 less each month than just a C4D subscription. Hmmm....where they possibly testing the market demand on now including Redshift with the C4D subscription at the same cost of 59.91/month? Just a thought. In any case, I find myself more interested in Blender 3.0 than C4D R25 given my fears that perpetual licensing is coming to end. Kind of sad statement of affairs on where my head is at with Cinema 4D after 16 years of using the program. Dave

Is it just me or has any company mastered the art of clean and clear communication when they make the shift to subscription licenses? There are always questions over what is NOT said in the announcement. But with that said, I do have to say that Insydium did a poorer job than most. In fact, some could argue that it was deceptive. I would like to give Insydium the positive benefit of the doubt as they have been very customer focused in the past (and I believe will continue to be that way in the future), but something just did not sit right with me in how they announced "Fused". Here are some points to think about: They never used the word "subscription" in their front page announcements. In fact, you have to infer what Fused really is by what is NOT said. Note that on the purchase page, you only see the word "perpetual" used against XP but not against all the other plugins. This raises questions. Their product page drop-down list box lists both "Fused Maintenance" and "Fused Subscriptions" -- so you think they are two different products but they are not. Everything is now under "Fused". So up until this point, you still think you have access to ALL that Fused has to offer but in a maintenance plan. In fact, the wording on the "Fused Maintenance" page is also rather confusing: Doesn't the highlighted section below lead you to believe EVERY plugin is perpetual...especially when this is under a "Maintenance Agreement" page? What is a "perpetual Fused license" then? The first time the word "subscription" is clearly called out for a Fused license is when you click the "What's this" icon next to the "Convert This License" icon on your account page. But you have to be an existing customer and you have to log in to get to that page. The marketing of Fused is really geared for first time buyers. There is nothing that is directed to existing customers. You would expect a well displayed FAQ page that addresses existing customers questions or concerns, but while I did eventually find one, I honestly can not remember where. I think it was on my account page - but honestly, I have not been able to find it again. As confusing as figuring out what Fused really is, the fate of Cycles is even more confusing -- no point in going into that again as previous posts on this thread have already discussed it in detail So it seems to me that the Insydium folks are trying to sell a subscription based product in the most distracting way possible so as to hide that it is a subscription. Their distraction is "look at all the plugins and training you now get in addition to XP and Cycles". While in the very small print they say "....oh and we are taking away perpetual Cycles from you." Honestly, I think Maxon was more upfront with what they were doing and they were not that upfront as they provided NO details on perpetual licensing. Look, if subscriptions were universally praised by their customers as a great program, companies would not be gaslighting their customers with each announcement. But we all know that subscriptions ONLY benefit the company so they are never explained clearly. Look...it is one thing to move to subscriptions. I get it. It is a good business move for you. But please treat us with respect and be honest about it. Don't treat us as morons and think you can hide what you are doing. That is condescending and we should NOT stand for it. I expected more from Insydium. Sorry to say, I am very disappointed. Dave

So are you buying or leasing via their bundle (Octane, Embergen and World Creator)? Not sure what your plans are, but I did look into the cost difference between buying and leasing in this post The cost to buy is much higher in your first year over leasing (obviously), but owning all three plugins only costs $8 more a year to stay in maintenance than their subscription program. To me, that is a no brainer - go perpetual. Dave

I honestly believe that Insydium is trying to do the right thing by their customers. Remember, everything you are reading here about Cycles no longer being updated is PURE SPECULATION! Nothing official has been said. I agree that the simple fact that XP is continued to be sold as perpetual license while Cycles moves to a subscription only license and is being bundled with a bunch of other plugins via Fused does not look good for the long term prospects of Cycles. It is never easy to cancel a product as you will always anger some customers. But, with that said, I do honestly believe that should Insydium announce no further development on Cycles that they are trying to accommodate the customer as much as possible. IMHO, in this age of Adobe crooks and Adobe wannabe's, Insydium is a pretty decent company. Their history shows they make providing outstanding value to the customer a top priority. You really can't ask for more than that. Nevertheless, please remember that this is ALL SPECULATION. The only thing we really know for certain is that Cycles is now subscription only. Dave

The smart thing about Embergen (and correct me if I am wrong) is that it is tied to the render engine more so than the host DCC application. This is plainly evident from their timeline where they plan to implement the ability to import animated meshes in Q3. Nevertheless, having the software linked to the render engine opens ups its market to more than just one DCC application. So wherever Octane is used, so can't Embergen. So points to JangaFX. XP is tied to C4D only which explains why it can be a multi-physics system. So points to Insydium. But which company do you think has the larger addressable market size? Obviously JangaFX. XP, from their perspective, tied themselves to a Cycles 4D which time has shown was not the best choice for the reasons I mentioned. They really need to get XP fully integrated into Redshift. Also, as they have their own built in physics engine, you then have to ask: well...why do they need to be coupled to C4D? Can their multi-physic capability be agnostic to the host application? If so, then what is needed next to be taken seriously in the broader markets outside of C4D: GPU acceleration. So what is the goal for all? Multi-physics particle and fluid simulations that is GPU accelerated and independent of the DCC application. That opens you up to the largest possible markets. Why wouldn't Insydium be thinking about that? JangaFX is thinking about it based on their timeline. Future Embergen enhancements are "particles as debris (bricks, wood shards)", "granular solving for dirt/sand within explosions)", "support for multiple simulations per scene" and "USD - universal scene description". In essence, overall tighter integration of physical simulations within a scene. Now, I would imagine JangaFX is way ahead in approaching that goal as they have already have the GPU and fluid simulation capability and a tight integration to Octane. I have to imagine implementing particle simulation and hard body physics simulations is not as tough as what they have already achieved. XP on the other hand has a tougher road with getting both tight Redshift integration and GPU acceleration. So points go to JangaFX. Dave

I think that is a very real possibility. Remember that there was a long pause in Cycles 4D development because (unfortunately) the lead developer was out of the picture for a year due to illness. Thankfully, I think she/he is back but that gap may have put Cycles 4D a bit behind that could have impacted its sales and stunted its growth at a time when Maxon is purchasing Redshift, and Octane is working with Embergen. As I think about it...and this is pure speculation but with a positive spin.....I have to imagine that Insydium is focusing on porting XP to be GPU enabled and as the Cycles 4D developer has that experience with writing GPU enabled software (as Cycles is GPU enabled), they decided that is where they are putting the resource. As such, they are evaluating whether or not Cycles 4D is worth the extra investment of hiring another person to continually keep it current. I would imagine...probably not. But a big factor in all of this is (again, pure speculation but something that makes a huge amount of sense to me) is that XP is under threat from Embergen and Embergen is tightly integrated with Octane. Embergen is GPU enabled and super fast. XP is tightly integrated with Cycles 4D and...not so fast. More people use Octane than Cycles 4D. So from an Insydium perspective they had two cap-stone products: XP and Cycles 4D. XP is doing well, Cycles 4D is not. Now, XP is under threat from Embergen. That is not a good position to be in for any company. So Insydium needs more products (thus Meshtools and Terraform) to sell to insure that they have the funds to support XP development to be GPU supported and (hopefully) tighter integration with a more mainstream GPU renderer than Cycles 4D. My guess is Redshift as they have a good relationship with Maxon. Now, as Meshtools and Terraform took shape, I am sure they evaluated how much revenue they would generate if sold as separate plugins and deduced not enough to keep XP development going. But...if bundled with a bunch of other goodies as part of a subscription plan then that could get people over the hump of moving into a re-occurring revenue model, especially for those who let their existing maintenance plans laps (which I imagine is more than you would think given their very generous 24 month allowance for lapsed licenses). So do or die for Insydium is to get XP to be GPU enabled and tightly integrated with Redshift to the same level as they had it integrated with Cycles 4D. Cycles 4D made sense in 2016 when it was the least expensive GPU enabled renderer for C4D at the time...but subscription models have changed all that with monthly purchasing. So Cycles 4D is an "okay" product to have but honestly, brings nothing to the table for Insydium in the face of what C4D users can get from Octane or Redshift. So it is an albatross now and that is why they are no longer selling any more perpetual licenses. I do not think it is because of some subversive plot to push people to subscription but rather an easing of the pain when they discontinue development on it all together...thus the bundling with all the other goodies in Fused. Dave

I think if you are currently under maintenance, then you get Fused now -- no additional cost. But after that maintenance expires, then cost to renew annual maintenance does increase from £180 to £190 (if I did my USD to £ conversions correctly). The only big change for any current Insydium customer currently under maintenance is that you Cycles perpetual license will convert to subscription at some point. XP perpetual licenses will stay as perpetual. Still trying to figure it all out as there are a few scenarios as I outlined previously with Cycles that have yet to be addressed, but I think the above is true. Dave

Well, for reasons I explained earlier in this thread, companies love the subscription model more than they love their customers. So what market forces does this create if EVERY perpetual license we have goes to subscription? We all know that hobbyists hate this model but for professional production houses it is a windfall. They can add/scale back seats at will depending on the needs of their business. They just love the flexibility. They have no sentimentality to past projects nor will they care if a lapsed subscription means that they cannot access them. They will only need to visit that project again if they have a client paying them to do so. On the other hand, hobbyists do care about being able to access past projects. So the only people who really want perpetual license options are the hobbyists. So how big is that market? Does our buying power...in essence our voice to those that only care about profit....have any impact on what a company offers? Given the continuing move to subscription I have to conclude that is does not. Face it --- the hobbyist is no longer a market that anyone cares about..... ...except for Blender. Blender's origins was with the hobbyist. Those CG lovers who desperately wanted to get into 3D back when Lightwave was $5000 per license (how times have changed...glad to know that C4D has lowered its prices since then....err...maybe not). Blender was really quirky then and while a lot less quirky now, still holds onto its unique UI which does get better and more mainstream with each release. Plus...and this is very important...Blender is innovating faster than its rivals. That is something that should not be taken for granted. Even more important than their innovation is that Blender is becoming more production worthy. Why else would Octane, RenderMan and Redshift be porting their render engines to Blender? Not to appease the hobbyists but rather because Blender is proving itself where time and dollars count: mainstream production. Blender is starting to become part of the production pipeline. A big part of production houses decision to hold onto a piece of software is how well it fits into their pipeline. I do believe that at some point as companies get comfortable with the guaranteed revenue streams that subscriptions provide, the incentive to innovate will decrease because the need to compete on cutting edge features goes away. Carry that thought a bit further and the leap to some pin-headed exec cutting expenses by cutting their software development team is not that far off. This leaves users with paying annually just to use the same old software with the same old issues longer than they have patience to endure. The frustration of using a piece of software that is not keeping up with your needs is an issue for the professional as well as the hobbyist. Meanwhile, Blender just keeps getting more established, more capable, more dependable and still free. What keeps pay-to-use software developers up at night is watching Blender become part of a proven production pipeline. Blender would have been foolish not to have that goal always in mind....and they are not foolish. You can see that initiative with the creation of their mini movies they started a few years ago - exercises that show quality long format animations are possible with Blender. Those mini movies were messages that Blender is to be taken seriously. So what would happen if more production houses move to Blender from other "Pay to use" apps? Where would that leave the "pay-to-use" apps who stopped caring about the hobby market when they moved to subscriptions? Would the hobby market now be important to them? By then, it could be too late. Dave

Wow...I must have been having a tough day. Nevertheless - I still cannot download the latest licenses unless I sign up for Fuse. That just doesn't "feel" right for anyone under standard maintenance but I can understand Insydium's reasoning for this - but you have to deep dive into ALL the literature to figure it out. Signing up for Fuse will NOT impact your current maintenance accounts on Cycles and XP. Each new release will still be perpetual while under standard maintenance - so go get Fuse because in their mind you have nothing to lose but only gain. Honestly, they should be applauded for this......but here is still one scenario that they have not clarified and the whole thing appears straightforward but has its complexities. Consider this scenario: Current Situation: I have XP and Cycles under maintenance until 12/2022. I sign up for Fuse today. Now, let's say that by 12/2022 they upgrade XP to Release 1100 (currently at 1030) and Cycles to release 650 (currently at 550). At that time both XP 1100 and Cycles 650 are PERPETUAL per my pre-existing maintenance agreement. Now on 1/2023 I renew my Fuse Maintenance agreement through 12/2023. In that year, they upgrade XP from Release 1100 to Release 1200 and Cycles from Release 650 to Release 700. I then decide to STOP renewing my Fuse Maintenance agreement in 12/2023. XP Release 1200 should still be active per the statements of their FAQ page. Cycles Release 700 should NO longer be active because it now subscription only. BUT...can I still use Cycles Release 650? Is that still a perpetual license or was it replaced by the subscription Cycles with my last Fuse maintenance plan? Dave

Cariyn, I see that now. Thanks for pointing out the Cycles license was in a drop down. So I have maintenance on both Cycles and XP until 12/2022. Therefore, regardless of what Fuse gives you I should be eligible under the maintenance program to get new releases of XP and Cycles. But right now, when I click on the download button I can only get up to Release 895 and NOT 1030. Plus there is NO download capability for Cycles. This is NOT what the FAQ page says: Not true....build 1030 is not even on the list: This is what they say about Cycles: But the Cycles download button is not even available as the whole window is greyed out. Sorry...can't download like you said. So something is not right. Yes...another nail in the coffin. Trust me......C4D R25 is going subscription in September. I just feel it in my bones given what is going on with Redshift and now Insydium Dave

What is interesting is that when I go to my account page, my Cycles license is gone. Only my XP license is shown. So they just can't take away my Cycles perpetual license!! That is just not right. Their FAQ section on Fuse (which is well hidden) mentions nothing about Cycles perpetual licenses. So how can they legally do that when my current maintenance agreement which lasts through 2022 applies to my perpetual licenses for both Cycles and XP? I know Daniel know has two Cycles licenses, so it appears that his perpetual is intact after conversion but they really need to put that in writing in the FAQ section. Dave

Okay...the server finally came back up for me. This is what I am NOT hearing: What happens if I convert to a fused license and then decide NOT to renew my annual maintenance? In essence, by buying into the increased services with Fused am I giving up my perpetual licenses for subscription licenses? Dave

Insydium just announced the releaese of Build 1030 and with it a platform called "Fused" which is XP, Cycles, Meshtools and their version of Terraform. So as we wondered, the new MeshTools and Terraform are NOT part of XP but separate products. Which kind of puts the updates to XP at a normal level rather than their yearly earth shaking, jaw dropping level. I tried to figure out much is the upgrade from XP and Cycles maintenance to Fused maintenance but their server keeps crashing. Dave

Quite simple....this decision is NOT made with the customer in mind. Rather, the only ones who benefit from this are the business owners as it creates a guaranteed stream of revenue going into their bank accounts. Subscriptions captures the user base more so than ever before. With perpetual licenses, if you were not happy with the upgrades, etc. you just stop paying for the upgrades and continue to use the software. The developer looses future revenue should the user make the decision to hold fast with what they have. Under a subscription plan, that same decision also takes away the ability to use the software. Regardless of what comes next you must keep paying to just use the software -- even if nothing you care about get's fixed or improved. This is the model every company wants to be in -- especially as a product matures and the technology to stand out amongst your competitors becomes more complex and expensive to develop. Re-occurring revenue streams raises the value of every company and that is why they do it. Remember, new features is NOT a mandate of the subscription license. That is an agreement we imprint on the developers based on history -- but there is nothing legally binding should a new release NOT occur while under subscription. I bring up this (hopefully ludicrous) scenario to make the following point: Where is the incentive to compete on new features released each year when the user base is locked into paying regardless of what the next release provides? We have seen this happen with Max, with Adobe Premiere and to some extent Adobe After Effects as well (based on some of the complaints I have heard) and so there is a precedent. Will this happen with C4D? Not sure....but history is on our side when it comes to justifying our concerns. Dave

Is there a link where I can find more information on extending maintenance through 2024? Dave

Really! No....really? Had you not said it, I never would have known because it is not listed at their site (cheeky bastards). But a quick search and I came up with this announcement page from last November (only 8 months ago....no need to put it on the Redshift main page yet. Hmmm....I see my future changing with each passing day. It would be nice to just chuck all this disappointment and worry over how Maxon is trashing C4D's reputation in their drive to full subscriptions and move on to Blender. I do sense that Blender users are probably happier with the direction of the Blender.org than C4D users are with Maxon. Plus Blender has some exciting new developments going on such as Cycles X and I hear yet another huge leap in the UI with Version 3.0 I do love X-Particles and Redshift though....but then again Blender supports Octane which in-turn supports Embergen. If Insydium decides to port XP to Blender, my decision would be easier to make. I hope they do that as they must already be familiar with the Blender SDK having worked on Cycles 4D. Should Maxon announce subscription only for C4D in September (as we all fear they will), then I really need to evaluate making the transition to Blender/Octane/Embergen....that is a lot of new stuff to learn and it will take some time for a part time hobbyist to make that transition. Dave

Well...regardless...one big draw is that Octane supports Blender. That makes it really interesting. How slow is Eevee compared to Octane? Dave

Agreed. Makes sense. If I leave C4D, I will be going to Blender and therefore will still be involved with the Core 4D site as your Blender thread is very informative. I also feel that I am not the only one thinking that way. Only the brilliant and the brave go to Houdini!!😀 Dave

Kitbash 3D just release "Favelas" --- (I have no idea what that means). Regardless, it is a pretty amazing collection of shanty buildings that you would find in severely economically depressed areas. Now, you may not want to build your own urban blight community, but the textures look to be outstanding. Given that there are 374 PBR materials, I am not sure you would be able to find material collections for what they are charging for the full model collection: $99.50. This price is 50% off the regular price and will jump up to $199 probably in a week (not sure). Dave BTW: I have found that you can go back and download purchased models in different formats as well as render engines. Something to think about as the world transitions to subscription programs (eg. they support Blender, Houdini, and C4D in Octane --- but not Redshift)

Thank you Igor....but as this is an (admittedly) narrow subject, is there a way to pulse people first if there is interest? Dave