3D-Pangel

This post I made in the NAB2020 thread would probably be appropriate here. In short, updating a core is NOT a trivial exercise and poses great risk. The fact that MAXON was able to successfully navigate those waters, still produce yearly releases with new features and STILL BE STABLE deserves recognition. But...with that said....there have been releases along this journey that were not worth the money that Studio MSA holders were paying - if only because we paid a higher premium when the majority of the new features benefited even Prime license holders. As for me, I had faith that MAXON would ultimately "deliver the goods" and I think those days are finally upon us. The goods are coming. But what is NOT happening is any recognition of the loyalty of those users, especially the Studio users, who stuck with MAXON through this journey and dutifully paid their higher MSA subscriptions for lackluster releases. Now, when R20 was released and they raised the Studio MSA prices from $620 to $750, I was not that upset because I finally felt that the "goods were coming" and MAXON should be rewarded. But then R21 came out and quite frankly it was a gut punch. Some new tools but not many to warrant a full point release and with it the pressure to move to subscriptions with a subtle threat that perpetual licensing would cost $900+. Non Studio users now get what Studio users have been paying a premium for all those years. Look, this is an old complaint but still just as painful. We stuck with MAXON all those years, supporting them during a very risky time for the company as they rewrote the core. This could easily have gone sideways for MAXON and permanently damaged the company (just look at Lightwave and e-on), its ability to complete the rewrite and their reputation. But now that they have successfully reached the end, we are faced with higher perpetual licensing costs, a subscription model that the majority finds distasteful, and no recognition that R21 MSA holders should (by contract) be entitled to S22. So again, I love the developers, I love the quality team, the UI designers, all the technical teams. My gripe is not with them. I am just disappointed that the business team places no value on user loyalty over the years and how we helped them get to where MAXON is today. Dave

No...I think not. In case there are any doubters - here it is in black and white. I encourage everyone to do the same as I just fell in-line with the whole perpetual vs. subscription model without thinking that last years MSA agreement would still offer yearly updates. It clearly calls out "upgrades" in the wording. Dave

Moving a huge program to a new core is a massive undertaking. But what is even greater than the amount of work that is required is the risk to the company. You need to look no further than e-on or Lightwave to see how mismanaged core development can hurt a company (though to be fair, each company had other mitigating circumstances that didn't help them either: Lightwave lost its founders and e-on got acquired and its servers hacked). Now, no matter what you say or think about MAXON (and I have been their harshest critic), you have to agree that by the simple fact that they are still here, hiring developers and managing a regular release schedule, that they have managed this migration with an amazing amount of success. They laid out a map of new features tied to how the parts of the core were being implemented and then executed it with unflinching resolve. I am sure that the blow back from the user base over certain releases was hard to take and created its own sense of pressure (self included: how many times have I used the word "lackluster"?). MAXON employees on this forum saw the end-state but had to be quiet and "hope" that the users would stick it out. Upgrades were not cheap in the past and have gotten more expensive -- so there is pressure to deliver the goods. "Trust us -- we will deliver the goods, we just can't tell you when" is not an easy thing to say to people while asking them to upgrade yet once again. So if you need to criticize, don't criticize the development and project management teams. They are executing through a complex project plan while at the same time trying to preserve their hallmark stability. Kudos to the programmers and software quality team! Rather, now that the core implementation is probably winding down, ask if loyal users should be shown some level of appreciation because we did say "Okay....we will patient and continue to support MAXON with each upgrade over the course of this multi-year transition because we know that someday you will deliver the goods"? Just a thought. Dave

Just wondering why their would be an "option" for "Accurate CPU material"? What other options would that imply? Accurate "GPU" material? Standard GPU material? Standard CPU Material? My point being that because there is a specific reference to "CPU" as an option has to imply that there are other hardware options for doing the calculation...in this case the GPU. Therefore, in the absence of all other data (other than downloading the demo and seeing what all your options are exactly), a case could be made that the GPU has a place in the new core....at least with hair rendering. Just a thought. Dave

You realize that you can download a DEMO version of S22 right now. Better than a technical document....go try it for yourself. So when was the last time you heard and announcement on a list of new features and able to download a demo the same day? I don't think that even happened with R21 (not sure...don't hold me to it). Dave

Well...that just hurt....but I guess I deserved it. If you do take up that approach, I want a finder's fee (free upgrades for life). Thank you for the honest answer and putting that concern to rest. I will ignore the chatter about an end to perpetual licenses on C4D Live going forward and pay more attention to the awesome presentations (yours included). Amazing what people can infer when you use an "S" instead of an "R". Dave

Yes...that I understand. The real question is how will the upgrades from an R21 perpetual license to the next perpetual license be treated? Will it be treated as a one release upgrade (from R21 to R22) or a two release upgrade (R21 to R23). It is a very relevant question that should be answered. Dave

So the C4D Live chat window is getting a bit confusing. Everyone is saying that perpetual licenses are going away because this is called S22. I thought I heard Mr. McGavran say that there would be a perpetual license upgrade within 6 months. I trust that will be the case (hey, it came down from "The Man" - so it has to be correct). But what I am confused about is what will MAXON be calling the next perpetual license if this is called S22? Will it be called R22 or R23? That may not seem like an important distinction, but it is important to an R21 perpetual license holder. If it is called R23, then is the R23 perpetual license upgrade cost going to be equivalent to the cost of upgrading TWO FULL VERSIONS (from R21 to R23)? That could be a significant cost after 1 year (potentially around $1800). If that is the case, then imagine if they continue this trend in one years time with S24 and then R25 in another 6 months. Whereas some may have consigned themselves to the higher cost of $900 to maintain a perpetual license on an annual basis, I think paying $1800 would be a bit of a shock....especially in a post COVID-19 economy. So maybe the C4D Live chat room is right. Perpetual licenses are going away. I would love to hear what MAXON has to say. Dave

I can now get to the NAB show. Pretty cool that missed presentations, like those from Mr. McGavran, are immediately available. Very interesting update. So with UV and viewport improvements and all tool modeling updates, is it safe to say that the new core is now fully integrated? Also, can any of the beta testers now discuss the symmetry tool improvements (if any)? One bit of very discouraging news is finding out who is now working at MAXON (I picked this out of Mr. McGavran's presentation): Who let these moron's into "The Office"....err.... the MAXON Office? Dave

So exactly what was said? I am a little confused. If you are saying that MSA's have ended, that is not new. I would assume that being able to upgrade a perpetual license is still in place. What is being said that is different than that? Dave

c4dlive.com pages are unresponsive and fail to load. Not sure if all of NAB2020 is virtual or not, but obviously, the internet cannot keep up with access demand. Oh...well, please post here what Mr. McGavran announces when it is all done. Dave

Using some "proprietary" algorithm that compiles user-reviews and "on-line data acquired from social networking sites", the site G2.com (found here) tries its best to provide some objective data (as well as interesting graphs) to answer the age old question "which software is best". Do I trust the data? Well, as much as I would trust Amazon ratings on N95 masks from China. But it does make for interesting reading. For example, who would have thought that C4D would fare this well in a modeling comparison: This compares software by Satisfaction (X axis) and Market Presence (Y-axis). A couple of things to note: Blender and C4D are very close. Also, C4D has a higher "satisfaction level" than all its competitors. I think this is "satisfaction" overall with the program and not just with the modeling tools. You may see an icon listed twice (like Adobe) but each icon represents a different software package offered by the same company. Again, the data is suspect as some positions just don't ring true to me - like Z-Brush or Substance Painter barely breaking the midpoint on market presence. Also sad to see that the once great Lightwave is now sharing its position at the back of the pack with Poser. As I said, interesting reading regardless of how you want to accept the data. Dave

I think you are confusing maintenance with subscription plans. They are different as explained below: Maintenance Plans: Allows you access to all bug-fix updates/releases made during the term of the maintenance contract (usually one year). You pay one lump sum up front cost for that period. Should you decide NOT to renew your maintenance plan at the end of its term, your current software is STILL FUNCTIONAL Subscription Plans: Allows you access to all bug-fix updates/releases made during the term of the subscription plan. You can pay as you go (usually monthly) or pay one lump sum up front cost for an extended period (usually one year). Should you stop paying your subscription rate, your current software STOPS FUNCTIONING. I agree that you can enter and leave subscription plans whenever you decide, but when you leave a subscription, you have no access to using the software. Usually, maintenance plans are ONLY offered to those who have the latest release of the software. Now, with maintenance plans, there is NO promise that a new release of the software will occur during your maintenance period. All the contract says is that you will get that release should it occur while you are under contract. Yes..that is a risk as people purchase maintenance plans with the intent that it gets them the next release. You really need to read the maintenance contract to understand what you are entitled to but, contract aside, most companies try to do the right thing if their release cycle takes more than 1 year. But most does not mean all. Now I would agree that RS is treating you poorly. But going in, you should have realized that RS is nVidia based and all OSX systems support AMD and therefore you would need an eGPU solution to run RS. So at the very least, you are a corner case as OSX RS users is probably not a large part of their current market. As such, getting a Metal version released per their original development schedule was probably not at the top of their priority list, especially as they were being acquired by MAXON. Also OSX releases after High Sierra no longer work with nVidia drivers. So I would imagine that their development of a Metal version is also tied to what nVidia is doing with their drivers for the newer MacOS releases and therefore RS is not 100% in control of their release dates. This is just my best guess of the situation but you would know best. But if it was me, I would not give RS any more money as there is no guarantee they will meet their Q3 release date, especially if they have already missed two previous promises. I would wait until RS release a Metal version and then decide. I know that is NOT what you want to hear, but I think it is your best option at this point given the situation. Good luck, Dave

That is great news. Having worked with the software for close to 12 years now, I would view the talented individuals such as yourself, Hrvoje, Srek and others as part of my extended neighborhood. While I may push/grumble/speak out against this feature over that feature, or this decision over that decision, at the core of all that noise (because it really is just noise....I admit that), I want MAXON and all its employees to be safe, prosperous and have a bright future ahead. Now go work on improving the symmetry tool or their will be hell to pay! 😆 Dave

https://www.awn.com/news/marvel-lucasfilm-pixar-other-disney-units-hit-furloughs I would have thought that a company the size of Disney would have been able to retain their employees, but it seems they are shutting down a number of their operations and moving out film dates by 1 year (so much for this summer's slate of films). IMHO, these are talented individuals and hard to replace as Disney, Marvel, Pixar, Lucasfilm are top name companies able to draw the best of the best. But Disney, which is hurting in pretty much all of their markets, is thinking short term. I hope that they can get their teams back when this pandemic ends...and it will end. So if Disney is hurting that bad, then I have to wonder how the smaller companies are doing....especially the freelance professionals. So my heart goes out to all graphic's professionals as I would imagine that at the very least, these are uncertain times. It will turn around and your talents will be in demand once again. Take care, be safe, and have hope. Dave

That is disappointing and it would be nice if the whole world was a fair and as customer-centric as Insydium relative to the handling of maintenance licenses (for me, Insydium is one of the top 3 reasons why I love C4D). But I have to ask then why you just don't wait a year and buy a whole new license if you are that upset about losing 2 months. Two years of maintenance or buy a new license every other year? It is all pretty much the same cost. I agree that you just can't turn on and then turn off maintenance plans. That is not how they are designed to work and this should not be a surprise to you. You could not do that with the C4D MSA as that was ONLY renewable if you had the latest version...which means you could not turn it off and then expect to turn it on again long after it expired. Once MAXON launched the next version you are out of luck. If RS only back-dates your subscription start date but still lets you get the newest version at the maintenance price when you renew late, that is actually a better deal (MAXON would make you buy a whole new version of C4D in that same situation). I would still go with an RS maintenance plan over a subscription plan. Getting RS via subscription would add $22/month to the C4D subscription plan or an extra $264 a year. For only $36 more, you get a permanent license. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Dave

The way I view Houdini is as an extremely power VFX tool that can handle massive data sets. Movies like San Andreas (the perfect movie for fluid simulation lovers) were done (I think) in Houdini and as such required data sets in the terabyte range. So to get the most out of Houdini, you need some pretty hefty hardware, if not a full render farm. But if you don't have massive hardware, then is it fare to say Houdini is a bit over-kill for the average user. Kind on like putting drag racing wheels on a Volkswagen Beetle. In short, why go through that steep learning curve if you are hardware limited? Wouldn't C4D and X-Particles be a better choice? Feel free to chime in ....if only to get this very interesting thread back on topic. Dave

Some great quotes: "I am getting great gas mileage: 2 weeks per gallon" "We are three weeks away from finding out what everyone's real hair color is like" "It wasn't until the Coronavirus that I found out that my lifestyle has a name: it is called "quarantine"

Play it often...play it loud

My understanding is the pay will be direct deposited to an individual's bank account as long as you provided that banking information when you filed your 2018 Tax Return. Not to rain on the good news, while I believe that the $2 trillion spending bill is necessary, when you pump close to 50% of the governments annual budget back into the economy then there will be some significant inflation (it's not like the government is going to figure out how to cut their annual spending....wouldn't that be nice). To change subjects: what hardware requirements does R22 require and where were they published? There is nothing on the MAXON site about this. Dave

Love it! But I have to say, that since the move to subscriptions, the customer is NOT the one pitching in these orgies - we are the ones getting [GROSS EXPLETIVE DELETED BY MODERATORS] 😲 Dave

I think Mr. McGavran should print this out, keep it by his bedside and read it every morning when he first get's up. As to why Redshift is not included in C4D is clearly A) They are milking the cash cow. Given their acquisition spree, they have to be. I think this will not be a good year for MAXON. I understand that the first full year of a subscription model is always the worst and now you have COVID19 on top of it. Plus Blender is putting the pressure on them and essentially turning fully featured DCC software into a commodity. Yeah....not a good combination. Oh...and MAXON just made a few big acquisitions on top of all this. My only suggestion to those who have to navigate these water is drink Pepto Bismol once a daily. Read your post, drink Pepto Bismol, get up (skip showering as you are probably working from home anyway), and get to work. Also, wasn't one of the "advantages" of a subscription plan the mid-year release of new features? Okay...we are 6 months in. Let's see what happens. I mean we are talking about new features for R22, but they did sell subscriptions on the basis of mid-year updates. So is it naive to expect some of these requests being fulfilled early? You tell me. Dave

Increase the sub-frame step size. That would eliminate the particle groups near the exhaust. You can find that under project settings. Dave

Object handling, viewport and speed improvements were on my list but completely slipped my mind. Also not sure why we can't get a good symmetry tool after 10+ years of asking. I think I just gave up. And I do agree that the bridge tool needs to be a bit more context intuitive - maybe that goes with the viewport enhancements as the bridge tool is rather dumb in interpreting your selections in a crowded scene view. Now, that could be operator error so I will defer to the experts here. Modeling falloff would also be nice....but couldn't that be replicated with fields as I thought fields will work on polygon objects. Again - I defer to the experts. Relative to X-Particles -- Insydium would only take up that deal to sell a license at a reduced price ONLY if they raise their maintenance prices. As I already own a license, that is of no benefit to me. Hey, I have already taken it up the shorts for being a Studio owner. For the past 10 years I had to pay higher maintenance prices but all the release upgrades were Prime, Broadcast, etc focused. Please don't do that to me with my plugins!!! Nope! I want MAXON to put a little sweat into their particle/fluid solution as their implementations are usually just as brilliant. Yes....time for the new normal relative to financial recovery from COVID-19. Something's got to give and right now (as I mentioned before) MAXON's licensing plan is very expensive relative to what others are doing. So I agree that MAXON needs to rethink not where they are today on their licensing plan but where their customers are today financially. I have heard economists say that COVID-19 is accelerating retail trends. Those that were struggling (eg. no web-portal or on-line buying platform) will die quicker and those that are strong will get more business (eg. Amazon). They were on their way to collapse anyway but COVID-19 just accelerated their decline. Maybe the same can be said for DCC software. In tough economic times, people and companies change how they spend and they change fast. Maybe Blender will get an even bigger big boost from all this than what 2.8 gave them: The software is free and powerful, plugins and training is plentiful and cheap. Blenders biggest barrier has always been their UI. So if 2.8 taught us anything, then going forward every time they make their UI a little more mainstream and a little easier to use, it is a game changer for EVERYONE. Given the rate the pump out new releases....that should be unsettling to their competition - especially MAXON. Exciting times ahead. Dave

I think you are going to see R22 focus more on VFX work. All the elements are there with field forces and OpenVDB support. I would like to see improvements to AR or PR that help support native integration of a fluid simulation system built into C4D rather than rely on Redshift for volumetric rendering of VDB data sets. Hopefully some of that RedGiant code for Trapcode Particular makes its way into a native C4D fluid simulation package. I would also like to see AR or PR updated with better glows, volumetric lights, etc....again pulling on Red Giant. In essence, if you are not going to make Redshift native to C4D, then please improve its existing render engines...I mean, we are paying high-end prices so we should expect those improvements in C4D core without having to pay more for Redshift. Next up would be a complete admission of defeat when it comes to Bodypaint and admit that Substance Painter is the ONLY way to go. Therefore, focus on complete integration with all Allegorithmic products. Finally, please do something with the monthly billing. I know that the whole license server implementation was a big thing for MAXON in 2019, but you really need to step up the billing side of it. Also, now that you have more products than just C4D, start to compare yourself to Adobe Cloud. Honestly (while I would never thought these words would ever be typed by me), I would prefer Adobe Cloud's subscription program over what MAXON offers in their subscription program (yes...it's that bad and the fact that you only get 1 product from MAXON rather than a full suite of Adobe products, then by comparison MAXON's subscription program is far more expensive).