3D-Pangel

Wow! I have no right to complain about perpetual upgrade costs given all that the plugin developers have to endure. Do these woes hold true for Python developers as well? Dave

Interesting that you didn't get a subscription promotion as a past MSA user. They are pretty good about that. You will not get any emails about perpetual license upgrades. That is NOT the path they want you to take as their goal is to lock you into a subscription (or re-occurring revenue). As Hobbyist stated, you need to contact MAXON about perpetual licenses. Also, as an R21 license holder, should you decide to accept any discounted offer on a subscription be sure to read the fine print. Some of these discounts also come with stipulations that your current R21 perpetual license gets flipped to a subscription as well....they can do that now as you need to connect to the server to run your software. Dave

Hey a quick search on the web said skydiving was #1 on the expensive hobby list. On reflection, I would have to say that the cost of a CG as a hobby is probably up there with a mild-golf addiction. Probably not as much as owning a boat or trout fishing. But what is interesting is that I call those white collar "bougie" types of hobbies. The type of hobbies held by people who take weekend getaways to their condo's in the mountains or have wine cellars (or at least wine cooler's -- but well stocked wine coolers). I always think of computer graphics artists as beer drinkers whose idea of weekend getaway is some DIY project involving dry wall. You know....real people! We don't have time to waste on bougie pretenses. Given the hours of training, discipline and dedication required to master this craft, we are hard nosed, face down, disciplined and extremely intelligent people. CG is a "whole brain" hobby. It fires all sides of the brain -- the left and the right -- so CG artists are practical, realistic, insightful and artistic. Bougie people can go on about their golf game, the price of a good Malbec or how much they are spending on diesel fuel for their bass boat. Everyone listens and nods their head at these stories, laughing at the right moments so that they can signal "Yes! I know what you mean because I am bougie too!" CG artists have a much harder time connecting with non-CG artists about their hobby. You want to clear a room: just starting talking about what you just modeled using ONLY quads and how the polygonal flow just looks so beautiful. Or finally mastering that perfect car paint reflection using only 4 nodes. Or that neat trick you learned by inverting the ambient occlusion map in the roughness channel! Yea....the eyes of the non-CG artists will start to roll up in the back their head as soon as you start talking. The only thing their lizard brains will take away from your conversation is "this sounds like math" and they will silently throw up in their mouth at the thought while hoping that a fire alarm goes off somewhere...anywhere just so that they can get away. Face it. CG artists just don't fit into the bougie crowd. Kind of blows my mind then that we would be willing to accept C4D's "bougie" software prices.

Igor, I had no idea you left MAXON! What is MAXON's loss is U-Render's gain. Yes... life can change fast and the world of cooperate America can change even faster. I think the high point for everyone was when R20 was released. That was a milestone release and for many, cemented our commitment to C4D. And then C4D wins a technical Oscar! OMG! C4D is now getting the respect it deserves and I no longer have to mutter its name when conversing with Maya an Modo users. And then MAXON purchases Red Shift! Who saw that coming! MAXON is getting aggressive. Honestly, I don't think there was one user who wasn't on cloud 9 at that point in time. And then September, 2019 happen. R21 gets announced and not only is it a lack-luster release but it is going to subscription. The whole release presentation was (IMHO) less than pathetic as it dealt with their new license server and subscription model more than with the new features of the program. If you took out all that, that presentation would only rise to the level of pathetic because it just wasn't a good presentation on R21 features. Pretty bad when you have to work to get to "pathetic" status. That whole day was a gut punch and to this day I would like to think that MAXON does not realize just how much of a gut punch it was. At least I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and say that they don't realize it. It would be far worse if they did realize it and then just didn't care. Yes....the world can change fast. But hopefully it changes just as fast for MAXON as well. Smart companies look at major customer policy shifts and set goals. They establish a governance model to define the success of that change and then have check ins to determine if it is working or needs correcting. I would hope that MAXON has a one year check-in on the success of their subscriptions model and are right now looking back and making that evaluation on its success. Are they on track? If not, then how do they correct? Digging in and sticking to their original plan on customer pricing is not what smart companies do especially when dealing with their customers. That is not a winning strategy...especially in our current economic environment and Nemetschek's current financial outlook (see previous posts). But I do see some interesting behavior on MAXON's part relative to their subscription plan that may provide some insight on how they have evaluated their one year performance on subscriptions....at least where past MSA holders are concerned. It follows this pattern: 1) Get an email about a 20% sale on subscriptions for MSA holders. 2) Follow up email that the 20% sale is about to close. 3) Final email that this is my last chance to save 20% on a subscription plan. 4) One month goes by and I get another email about a 20% sale on subscriptions for MSA holders. Hmmm.....does that sound desperate to anyone other than me? Dave

Agreed. The cost of subscriptions in the C4D world (noted above) if you are real enthusiast and want software, plugins, additional render engines, training, etc can easily equate to that of leasing a pretty cheap car. I looked up what the most expensive hobby was and it turned out to be skydiving as the cost of a each jump is $300/person. I think if you did 12 jumps a year ($3600), then it compares favorably to having C4D as a hobby when you consider all the subscription fees plus the money you need to put aside for new computer hardware. Now this may not be 100% accurate (I have never gone skydiving) --- but you get my point: C4D is one very expensive hobby.

I certainly hope not or the two of us will never move the needle on giving the hobbyist a break on staying with the program. My sincere hope is that the hobbyist is enough of a customer block to MAXON that our sales (or lack of them) mean something to their quarterly income statement. Pleading, whining, cajoling and hoping won't do a thing. MAXON is a major company in a big market. Don't get all warm and fuzzy thinking that they will have empathy for the hobbyist who is not a fan of subscriptions - who wants something permanent that they can keep using if they can no longer afford this expensive hobby. What motivates any company is making their quarterly revenue targets. I encourage everyone to read up on Nemetcheks market analysis. They are doing well, but their short term debt exceeds their short term assets. This is not good and can represent risk in a bad economy. COVID-19 certainly is helping any economy these days, so there is exposure. As such, I am sure there is pressure for revenue across all divisions. Hopefully, if enough hobbyists sit on their wallets, the lack of our dollars put their quarterly revenue targets at risk. Only then, will MAXON do something.

All, With all due apologies to the Daniel Sterckx (Dast in the Forums) and the moderators, I thought I would put in a plug for PolyDup from Tools & Pixels. A very handy plugin for mesh creation and my personal favorite: greebling. I had no idea it was released back in July as the only notification on the Cafe was this post from Daniel at the end of a 4 page thread. What is especially sad is that Daniel is closing the site for various reasons. IMHO, this is a loss to the C4D community. On the plus side he is having a 50% off sale on all of his products: PolyGnome, PolyDup, Seamilar, Dials and EasyUV. All these plugins only support up to R21. Thanks, Dave Full Disclosure: I am just a satisfied customer of Tools & Pixels and in no way affiliated with the site or its developer. I just hate to see talented programmers not get rewarded and having to close shop.

If I was a professional using C4D to earn a living, then ANY subscription plan makes sense, especially if you have core employees and then need to expand for a particular job (eg. Core employees go with the annual plans, transitional employees go on the monthly plan). If your business is predictable enough, you could easily buy X more seats than core employees in anticipation of those busy times as the monthly rates do add up quickly. But as a hobbyist, subscriptions are not preferred because you can never go back to your work should you no longer be able to afford the subscription. This is a hobby after all and what is sad is EVERYBODY is moving to the subscription plan. Just look at how quickly it can add up for subscriptions in the C4D eco system (annual rates). C4D - $720 X-Particles/Cycles 4D - $425 Greyscalegorilla - $399 Octane - $399 C4D/Redshift - $983 C4D/Redshift/Red Giant - $1200 After Effects - $252 Vue/Plant Factory - $525 Terragen - $348 That is a lot of rental fees. Things can quickly add up for the hobbyist. Hobbyists are different than the people who use this software for business for one simple reason: Hobbyists like to go back to their old WIP's. When we learn a new skill or master a new technique, we want to go back to something we did 3 years ago and make it look better. Businesses don't do that unless the customer asks (and pays for) an upgrade to an old work. Therefore, we like our licenses to be perpetual because should we no longer be able to afford the upgrades, we still want the ability to revisit that old work. Subscriptions cater to the commercial world. Perpetual licenses cater to the hobbyist. Unfortunately, perpetual licenses are not priced for the hobbyist. Hobbyists have been left behind by everyone but Blender. What companies fail to realize is that everyone probably entered this field as a hobby. No one decides to make a big investment in CG (be it software, hardware and/or education) without at least trying it first. Only after they have tried it and had some success with it in their "hobby" years do they decide that they could be successful with it in a formalized educational curriculum and then as a professional. Leaving the hobbyist behind with all these subscription plans is not a good long term strategy. Autocad/Houdini have already realized that. Dave

There are a few really cool YouTube channels that I wanted to share with people. In the past, I recommended Corridor Crew (one of their members, Clinton Jones, spoke at a MAXON webinar last month). All of these sites support my love for visual effects: a craft I have admired since the 1960's when I first saw 7th Voyage of Sinbad (an old Ray Harryhausen movie). I firmly believe that to be a better CGI artist, you need to study how they used to fake reality using physical methods. Remember that the old methods helped form the visual language we try to replicate in the computer today. That decades old visual language was formed from a desire to create what looks "good" more so than what looks "real". So we need to understand that language especially when it comes to lighting, atmosphere, detailing, and generally creating that general sense of verisimilitude that is hard to create in any medium. The old adage of "you won't know its there, you will only know it when it is not there" has never been more true. So here are some sites (links in titles) that I have found that can help with developing an eye for that visual language using old and new techniques: Befores & Afters - A great site that breaks down specific VFX shots from movies and shows. InCamera - To be launched on 9/23/2020. The show has a tremendous premise -which is this: while CGI is great, the physical effects world of LED lighting, 3D printing, prosthetics, etc. have been advancing as well and that something truly amazing can be created by combining the two. This will be a "must watch" for me....and the whole point for this post --- please go there and subscribe!!!! VFX Geek - Both old and new effects are highlighted here. Where was this channel when I was young? Oh yeah....they didn't have the internet back then. Visual language also embraces "form" language. Form language is important when trying to model things that just don't exist but somehow "feel" right. Never has this been more true when creating sci-fi based organic or non-organic models. For sci-fi organic modeling, just google Neville Page - top in his field (IMHO). For non-organic, well...my interests are very narrow as you will see by the links below: Howard Day - Just pure modeling appreciation here in my favorite genre - spaceships. No instruction - just eye candy. Watch it to be inspired. Ansel Hsiao - In short, Howard Day on steroids (and Howard Day is awesome). To be honest, to really appreciate the scale and depth of the detail he puts into a model, better to look at the stills found at http://fractalsponge.net/ For one person to model to that level of complexity takes mental stamina as well as amazing talent. Polygon Pen - So you have seen the work of Howard Day and Ansel Hsiao and now want to model a 300,000 polygon space ship of your own. Well, you best bone up on the hard surface modeling techniques in Cinema 4D that can be found at this site. Ian Hubert's Lazy Tutorials - Short tutorials (2 minutes or less) that touch on neat tips and tricks in Blender. As they are short, they really spend more time on the essence of the technique/approach rather than the "how" and as such are translatable to other applications. Dave

Always a huge surprise when you get an email from Holger explaining that he has updated his scripts and he provides a free download link. I 100% agree that Holger knocks it out of the park with both his support and the brilliance of his scripts. Folks...there has to be a reason why he has sold 1000 of them!!! Well worth the money and a must have. While clearly explained in his email, I just want re-iterate that V2.33 is for R23 compatibility only (no new features or bug fixes). If you don't have R23, you can stay on V2.32 which is compatible back to R21. Dave

Agreed. I do admire the admin's modesty and like the concept of the admins removing themselves from the social media syndrome of tallying your "likes" by pegging the quantity to 1,000,000. But while your totals won't change beyond the 1,000,000 values you have, wouldn't you at least want to get some immediate feedback on your posts? I for one really appreciate some of the posts from the admins and wanted to show my gratitude. But (to be honest), it is only on a few rare occasions that the situation warranted a private PM. Much easier to just hit like an move on. Dave

While I agree, my expectation is that there would eventually two classes of nodes - but both functioning within the same architecture. The lower class of nodes would be equivalent to Xpresso and hopefully future versions of C4D can load in older versions of C4D that use Xpresso rigs. Given how Xpresso is used in rigs (characters, models, lights, etc), they really need to keep supporting it but within the new architecture. That would be the ideal case. Just like they moved to the latest version of Python, my understanding is that the changes are not that significant to the older versions and plugins can be easily ported to R23. My hope is that the same applies to whatever the new node system means to Xpresso. Dave

Hmmm.... Things seem to be moving your way relative to currency conversion. Just 10 days ago the conversion rate was 1.12681 euro's per GPB now it is 1.08337. So if the upgrade was 850 GPB, then in the last 10 days (just due to currency conversion rates alone) your Euro price dropped from 957.79 euro's to 920.87 euro's. The trend is down because I understand that the UK is slower to financially recover than the rest of Europe from the Corona virus so the Euro is stronger than the pound right now. Interesting that there is no direct seller in your region. I do find that odd. Given all the currency fluctuations right now as economies recover from the pandemic at varying levels that can create some revenue instability if you have to deal with varying conversion rates. Yep....bad time to be a global company. Dave

I asked specifically if the current R20 to R23 upgrade price would be in place for future releases: in essence, is this a one-time sale to increase sales or a policy? Unfortunately, I got this standard response from Mr. McGavran found here Interesting how the whole R20 to R23 price, like all perpetual license costs, is a bit of a deep dark secret in that it is not posted on the MAXON web-site. One has to wonder why? Why is any pricing information on any perpetual license upgrades not made more public? Well, I submit that the reason is that the number of users who are clinging to their perpetual licenses does represent revenue that MAXON does not want to lose and it varies by region or market. Does this mean it is a big chunk of their revenue? No idea....let's just say that they don't want to lose it and leave it at that. It is money on the table after all. On top of all that, is the fact that the whole annual subscription process kicked off in September, 2019 means that whatever quarter the month of September falls into on the MAXON (or Nemetshek) financial calendar will be ALWAYS be big revenue quarter for MAXON...especially as that corresponds to their release cycle. All subscribers are re-upping this month for the next year. That is not good. They need to generate sales and revenue around the entire year and not have 80% of their revenue occur at this time of year. You have a miss in this quarter and it puts a cash crunch on the entire year....and MAXON has some debt now with their acquisitions. Missing revenue targets can happen for a number of reasons -- most of them out of MAXON's control (just look at Covid-19). For a global company, bad things can happen fast (trade issues, wars, natural disasters, economic collapse, currency devaluation and inflation, macro economic shifts, etc). So you want revenue occurring year round because if it happens during your big quarter, you have less room to recover. So offering future sales either public or private on perpetual upgrade pricing is one way to generate revenue in other quarters. But MAXON does not want to train their customers on when is the best time to buy. So that is why they keep that information private. That is why I keep urging all perpetual license holders (which I assume are mostly hobbyists like me) to sit on their wallets. Time is on our side and not MAXON's. Something may break our way so just resist the urge to get the shiny new ball that is R23. Remember as a fellow hobbyist, it is a want and not a need. Now, if MAXON did initiate an on-going policy that you could go two full perpetual license upgrades for the same price as one upgrade then sign me up! I go will go quietly into the night as a very happy C4D user and never talk about pricing again. But right now, I just can't abide nor wish to afford $1000/year as a hobbyist (every two years works for me though). Some people equally as upset as I am have left the platform completely but I do love the program and have invested a lot of time and money in it. Blender will always be option if patience doesn't pan out for me and MAXON sticks to their high perpetual licensing costs. Unfortunately for MAXON, I am a very patient person and not going anywhere. Dave

No worries. I had to laugh at your first line though! I feel your pain! We all do. But you get it...this can be an expensive hobby that has no practical applications other than feed your own soul. My brother has wood working as a hobby. A real master too! Yes...he probably spends close to what we spend on his hobby but when he is done his wife has a dining room set. Far more practical. 😉 Dave

Agreed. Funny how they can do it for the billed monthly crowd at $89. Not really sure what their concern is over monthly billing at the annual subscription price and I do not accept that legal mumbo jumbo about how leases work in various countries. I would imagine that the US is a pretty major market and you could make it work here. If Srek's comments about Mr. McGavran pushing everyone is true, then he can push the development of different versions of the license server for different regions. Geeze...MAXON is supposed to be a global company after all. Get with the times...hire a few accountants and people trained in global compliance or borrow them from Nemetshek. You want to put some teeth into monthly billing at the annual subscription rate then do this: Miss a payment (the $60 credit card charge is declined for whatever reason that month) then you have one month to correct and make your missing $60 monthly payment. After that month, your license is shut down and your annual subscription is blocked until its time of renewal. This means that if you want to keep using the software until the end of your original annual subscription , you must pay the higher monthly rate of $89 (Sign up required on a month by month basis). Yeah...that would put a shudder down my spine. This is a big stumbling block that MAXON has to solve. There is a higher probability of me being able to make a true $60 payment each month for as long as I am alive and able to use the software then there is for me to make a lump sum $720 or $1000 payment once a year. Dave

MAXON One may be king for the professional user but as a fellow hobbyist, I do not see it. In order to take full advantage of Red Giant, you need After Effects, which means Creative Cloud for $635.88 USD per year. Total subscription cost is then $1,834.92 when you add in MAXON One. Honestly, that is like buying a full license of C4D every two years. Not sure how much of a discount you are expecting in the future for MAXON One, but right now that is a lot of cash every year to rent software (remember -- you stop paying you are left with nothing). Add in other costs for this hobby like keeping your hardware up to date, purchase the occasional tutorial here and there or a few plugins (which also have their own annual license costs) and your hobby costs could easily rise to $3000+ per year. You go this path, then you are locked in to some pretty significant costs each year if you want to keep pursuing your hobby. You can lease cars for less than this amount. If you can support all that as a hobbyist, then I would say you are one lucky person. Dave

You forget Shrikes comments. He praised the license manager for being able to shift subscription seats around within his business. Therefore, businesses may find that due to their own financial outlook due to Covid-19's impact on the entertainment industry they may re-up the annual subscription for less seats then they had in 2019. Remember, all those annual subscription seats are coming due this month as it has been about one year since they were first introduced. If the business future is a little bleak for any studio, then they are going to drop a few to meet their own financial needs. If business picks up they can quickly add them but until that point they need to worry about their cash outlay TODAY as they are all coming due. That is how I would plan it in periods of uncertainty because there is no penalty for downsizing now and adding back later. What this all means is less cash to MAXON today and an uncertain cash flow in the future. That is why I say time is on our side. Dave

Agreed. An annual $1000 upgrade price is something I am NOT signing up for. I would be perfectly happy just buying a whole new license every 4 to 5 years than shell out that much cash for an upgrade given how slow MAXON is to release new features. Also, this is a key year for MAXON. This is the first year where people under the MSA program are now facing a choice: Subscription or Perpetual. Business owners will choose subscription but I would guess that given how hard Covid-19 hit the entertainment industry, there may not be as many subscription sales in 2020 as there were in 2019. The beauty of subscription for a business owner is there are no penalties for dropping a few seats and then adding them back in when you need them. MAXON may find out that the subscription model is NOT a much of a guarantee of re-occurring revenue as they hoped. It is not recession as proof as would be the MSA program where the penalties for not renewing the MSA program were higher future license costs. Also, people like me are probably not too fond of the $1000 USD costs for a perpetual upgrade either. So this will be an interesting year for MAXON. On top of all this, they are either cash-strapped or in debt from their Redshift and Red Giant acquisitions. Even in the best years, changing your revenue model to something that is never popular with users after two big acquisitions has risk. Now throw a global pandemic on top of all that and it is NOT a pretty picture. I do believe that time is on our side and quite happy to sit on my wallet for the foreseeable future until something breaks our way be indie licenses or a more favorable perpetual license model for hobbyists. Dave

I know your comment about what is being explored applies to C4D's capabilities and that you probably have no insight to where the internal discussions are going on indie licenses. Honestly, I do hope that indie licenses are being as carefully considered as the ongoing development of Neutron. The comments made by Shrike and Dasfrodo that missing indie/young/hobby users at a lower price point will starve MAXON of future revenue cannot be ignored. While I state that Blender gives us options, I guess it is also true that hacked software gives them options too (which is really sad). Unfortunately, impassioned posts on the Cafe are not going to move the needle on indie pricing. Slow sales on R23 will move the needle. Remember that this is probably the first full release where people are no longer covered by the MSA program of the past. Revenue, be it subscription or perpetual, from this release is what sets the tone for MAXON's future. Dave

There is also some NEW information in Mr. McGavran's post that I wish I had known about last year prior to upgrading from R20 to R21 at the MSA price for the last time...and that is the ability to do a perpetual license upgrade from R20 to R23 for the same cast as upgrading from R21 to R23. Had I known that, I would have waited. When was that plan publicly announced? Probably never (AFAIK). Here is why: I would imagine that revenue from existing customers is greater than revenue from new customers. Subscription prices are fixed for current subscribers and I come to that conclusion as I recall some legal arguments about why they can't make changes to contract pricing in various countries. I can't remember the details, but that was the sense I got when they explained why MAXON cannot have true monthly billing versus annual billing on subscriptions as it was due to leases, contracts, etc. Is it a real concern or a bid to hide behind legal mumbo-jumbo? Not sure. But one thing is certain: As with any company, MAXON needs some room to maneuver to capture revenue should sales be below expectations and they may only be able to do that with perpetual licenses. So I think if they commit to announce pricing in "EVERY MARKET" on perpetual upgrades they loose some of that wiggle room. They don't want to communicate to everyone that existing customers in the US are getting better deals than the UK. So they play their cards close to the vest. They also want to give away deals when they don't have to. I can't blame them...that is smart business. This could explain the new information (at least to me) to upgrade from R20 to R23 for the same price as upgrading from R21. That was a deal you would only get if you called MAXON as a license R20 holder and that deal was probably not in play when I renewed my R20 to R21 MSA for the last time. That is why for those who are perpetual license holders and want to stay perpetual license holders, I advocate waiting. Something you can afford may be in your future. I hope so because I just can't be shelling out $1000 every year for an upgrade. For those who are subscription license holders, you may be thinking "why is this an issue". Well...let me describe the worst case scenario. You can afford $720/year so you are comfortable. But what if MAXON started to increase subscription costs to a $1000/year (ala Autodesk)? That may be beyond your budget....but if you opt out, you now have nothing. I am not saying that will happen but that is something you need to think about when you consider the plight of the perpetual license hobbyist. Dave

This was the main problem with being a Studio MSA holder in the past and paying a premium for that MSA over what Prime and Broadcast license holders pay and then finding out that the latest release has no benefits unique to the Studio version. In essence, why am I paying more for the same benefits everyone else is getting at a lower price. Well, at least under the MSA program and the perpetual license program, if you don't like where the program is going you can opt out and STILL have access to your current version. Not so with subscriptions. If you opt-out, you have nothing until MAXON releases an update you do like and then you can rejoin the subscription plan. Interesting that you think subscriptions are expensive at $720. Try perpetual upgrades at close to or over $1000 - especially if you are a hobbyist. I could do a subscription for 4 years and have nothing or just purchase a whole new license every 4th year and have something that I can keep and still save some money over the perpetual license plan and only costing $615 more than the subscription plan -- but you now get something you can KEEP! Given their pace of development, the program doesn't change as fast as Blender. Maybe waiting won't be that bad for me and in 4 years, the program will have something that everyone will like. For those of us that hate the subscription plan and shudder at the high cost of a perpetual license upgrade, starving MAXON of funds for 4 years may drive the change we all need. Remember that this is a different economy right now (everyone is hurting: customers as well as clients in the entertainment industry). MAXON has Redshift and Red Giant to pay for and probably have lost some customers with the transition to subscriptions. So time is on the hobbyists side. We just have to get out of the mentality of "I need the shiny new ball right away"! Not at that price (near or above $1000). Dave "We are in the endgame now"

It is not my intent and I apologize if it appears that way. Very clearly explained and a bit surprising as this upgrade pricing from R20 is new information to me. If I may respectfully tread on your patience one more time: Is this pricing policy unique to the transition from MSA programs to perpetual or will it be offered when the next full perpetual license is released (say - for the sake of argument - R25). Will I be able to go two full license upgrades in the future (for example from R21 to R25) for 850 euros? I would imagine that this would be a very important pricing program for hobbyists everywhere as paying $1003 USD every two years is far more affordable than paying it every year. We don't make money on C4D....we just love using the program and the capabilities of the program are growing so fast that I probably need two years to grow into it anyway (this is not my day job after all). Dave

Plus, their pricing web-page has a "change region" function...so I would imagine that it could automatically factor in the currency and taxes in the pricing when you change regions. Unfortunately, Mr. McGavran's post even added more confusion because he stated that 850 euro cost was upgrading from R20 OR R21....the key word being "or". Plus R20 was the pre-license and pre-subscription so this DEFINITELY IMPLIES one cost on whether you are upgrading one full release to two full releases....provided that is what Mr. McGavran meant to say. Very interested in hearing more about that. Dave

So you can go two full "perpetual" licenses for one price (850 euro or $1003 USD) as you said "R20 or R21 --> R23"??? I know with S22 in the mix, sequentially numbered upgrades along the perpetual path are a thing of the past, but you did mention R20 in your post which implies two full perpetual license upgrades (R20 --> R21 --> R23). Again, to be clear because this is important, is the 850 euro price the cost for upgrading to the next release ONLY or will it ALSO be the cost to upgrade two full releases in the future?