3D-Pangel

The only footprint I make on the web is here at the Cafe (I avoid all social media platforms). Shamefully, for quite some time I only supported them by buying their products (mostly tutorials) and it wasn't until recent events that I became a monthly contributor. Over time, I hope people realize what a gem this place is and open up their hearts and their wallets to keep it going. We have some top notch people running it -- top notch in their C4D knowledge as well as their character. My fear is that the Cafe is a place that people largely take for granted like I did for all these years. Only until it is gone will you realize what you have lost. Dave

Dan, First off...still love your work and still mourning your absence from the plugin market. With that said, I am NOT against paying for upgrades. Here is what I am NOT willing to pay for: 1) Bug fixes...sorry, but that also includes stability improvements. 2) New licenses to match C4D upgrades (eg. same program, no major code changes, just generating a new license to work with a new version of C4D) 3) Renting the same (and not improved) program year after year. Here is what I am willing to pay for via an upgrade pricing model: New major architecture changes to continue working with significant changes to C4D's core architecture -- in essence I do believe setting up the program to work with future C4D releases is a worthy investment on my part as with it comes the potential for the next three items: New features Speed improvements Scale improvements (ability to handle much large object sets, better viewport performance, etc). And here is what I am absolutely dead-set against and where I think GSG crossed the line: Having to buy into leasing a much larger set of products in order to keep my plugin current. Why do I have to buy materials and training if I just want my plugin to work with future versions of C4D? Seriously....what were they thinking? Sorry, if I want textures I can go to Pixel Lab (who offers just as much variety in textures and models for various render engines plus ODB based products as well -- and at a much fairer price --- especially when you catch them on Black Friday). For training, I can go to Core4D, Rocket Lasso, Eye Design, Wolf 3D and a thousand other YouTube channels. Dave

What is really scary is that Greyscale Gorilla is now going the 100% subscription route. All perpetual license sales are ending. As an owner of their plugins (Signal and GorillaCam) they will only support perpetual users through the next release of C4D. If I want their plugins to work in a version of C4D after that, I have to purchase their entire subscription service for $400/year. Honestly...that is outrageous. I always appreciated their tutorials and what they did for the community but now they are as evil as Adobe (IMHO). I personally hope GSG fails at this venture and realizes that a good portion of their market is filled with people who reject all forms of subscriptions or who use C4D subscriptions begrudgingly. Even if you are forced into C4D subscriptions, you do have a choice for their plugins, libraries and tutorials. GSG is NOT the only game in town in those areas. So I want them to fail because imagine if EVERY plugin developer, tutorial maker, or library developer went to a subscription model? How much are you willing to pay EACH year for access to HDRI images you may not even be using on a regular basis? Overall...ridiculous and down right greedy. They are dead to me. The best part of GSG was Chris Schmidt so I am very glad he left GSG and is now running his own show at RocketLasso. ...and now a short plug for RocketLasso (Disclosure: I am not an affiliated with RocketLasso, Chris Schmidt or anyone who works with RocketLasso) Great site....clear well thought-out instruction. Chris simply is a great teacher. Yes...it tends to be a little heavy on the MoGraph side, but EVERYTHING you learn is ALWAYS very practical that can be applied to ANYTHING. Chris also personally responds to email (having contacted him relative to some Xpresso courses). He is extremely knowledgeable in just about all the areas of C4D. Definitely a site worth checking out. Plus RocketLasso is starting to make plugins (Recall seems very cool). Dave

Well....by deprived do you mean loss of Cineversity? True that hurt but let me ask you this, how many improvements have they made to Advanced Render since MAXON purchased Redshift in 2019? I think there is more user manipulation going on than just withholding Cineversity. I think the perfect world for MAXON is that every users moves over to a subscription for ALL their products. That is why they came out with MAXON One. All the incentives are moving in that direction with negative incentives (eg. removal of Cineversity, big price increases) for people who choose a different path (eg. perpetual licenses). People are willing to play along with this plan as long as these programs continue to improve with each release either with more features and/or increased stability or power (eg. more object handling, better viewport performance, etc). People intrinsically want to see that they are getting something for their money beyond simply being able to use the program. But what NO ONE thinks about is that at some point in the future, the pace of development will slow down as the programs mature. Then the subscription user begins to ask the questions like "why am I paying $X a year just to use a program this is not improving". I think Adobe users will resonate with this opinion as they have been making these complaints for quite some time now. Unfortunately, Adobe stock continues to rise despite these complaints so while they may be winning financially their user base is extremely upset and complaining as they feel trapped. That is the long term price you are paying for your subscription licenses today. They seem like a great deal now but at some point you will feel the trap of having to continually pay for something you do not feel justifies the cost. Dave

Wow. Really amazing work and it captures so many aspects of the show that I have forgotten over the years (or put out of my mind given that the potential for something mind-blowing in the final season ended as mere dream). The only thing more outstanding than the modeling, effects, composition, texturing, camera work, pacing, editing...etc..etc...was the lighting. Just gorgeous. Was everything 3D? Was the horse 3D? Did you sneak in any live action and/or photo clip art as a multiplane effect anywhere? Sorry...I have to ask because scenes towards the end really do read as real to me. Even if it was clip art, it was very well implemented. My only disappointment is that you did not (or could not due to copywrite issues) use music by Michael Giacchino (Lost's original composer). Using the last 90 seconds of music from "Parting Words" would have just risen the piece to a different emotional level (IMHO). I actually keyed your video to that final segment of the music (fade in the music starting at 3:48 based on a 5:20 long cut of Parting Words). What makes it cool is that the classic weird musical flourish of strangeness that is typical of all Lost music which appears at the end of "Parting Words" coincides with the final scene of the island and title card. As the music builds to that point throughout the video, you should try it as it will give you chills. But still...amazing. Dave

I really don't think it was Igor's idea to change the domain name. It would make no sense for the reasons stated. To help illustrate my point, I offer a hypothetical question: How long do you think a site with the domain name "DisneyCafe" would be allowed to exist? I think that example should help people understand exactly what was behind this change. Dave P.S. BTW: "DisneyCafe" is available for sale at GoDaddy.com....go ahead and buy it and then set your stop watch to see how long it takes for a bunch of lawyers to contact you.

Agreed and agreed! But I do think it will be some time until MAXON considers the indie market simply because there is no compelling financial need for them to do so right now. Listen to this podcast from Corridor Digital (at this point - around 1:06:50) of their artists talking about C4D vs. Blender vs. Max and why they are moving to C4D. Their biggest criticism is when companies stop investing in developing, growing and/or fixing issues with their programs. They are drawn to C4D because they feel it is still being improved and is growing and well supported by tons of tutorials. So as long as C4D has that type of draw, MAXON will do nothing. Now, at some point in the future, C4D's core will be fully implemented, the gap in features between it and its competitors will be slim enough not to be factor in any decisions and the whole market begins to become a commodity. Every package will only be differentiated by the loyalty of their user base rather than their feature set. All markets reach this point. I have no idea how many years away this will be, but it will happen. It will ONLY be at that point that MAXON tries to expand their user base by going after indies because they will no longer be able to do it by its features. In short, don't hold your breath until then. Dave

"Cafe 4D" anyone?

Hmmm....seven years of cash-back points on credit cards pay for my next PC's. I buy the most powerful PC's I can afford and use them until the finally out --- which is about 7 years. Dave

But doesn't that then mean that all your passwords are stored externally on some cloud service? So far, I have lost all confidence that any external site can't be hacked. I can't tell you how many times my credit cards get automatically replaced because my credit card company finds out that a big name merchant was hacked. As for me, I keep all the important passwords in a double encrypted file stored on an external USB drive (two actually --- one is kept in a fireproof safe). You can't hack what's not connected. Overkill? Do I have serious trust issues? Absolutely and that is the way I like it. Dave

Great idea though to open it to other programs. Will there be separate sections for each software program (similar to CG Networks). Maybe open a modo section and invite 3D Kiwi back to be the moderator. That would be awesome!! I would love to get back some of the people who have moved on to Blender ---- simply because we miss them. Are we locked on "Core 4D"? How about "Core 4D Cafe"? (or is that too long?). That way, while the domain name is officially "Core 4D Cafe" us old timers could shorten it to "C-4D Cafe".....if only to annoy those people who created the situation that was "beyond your control" which forced you to change it. Probably domain jumpers. I personally am up for annoying anyone who picks on one the friendliest sites on the web.....bunch of bullies. Dave BTW: First time I actually had to use my user id and login to enter the site in a LOOONG time. Fortunately, I remembered it.

Honestly, I think MAXON sales would increase if they offered an indie perpetual license for 50% of the current price ($1750 base and $500 upgrade cost) but with rendering limited to 2560 x 1440 and animations limited to 300 frames. That keeps it purely in the hobbyist category -- big enough to appreciate your work on mid-range monitors with animations long enough to show off what you just learned. Of course, they could do nothing and let the hobbyist market completely go to Blender. I wonder how painful it will be for them to watch Blender catch up and over-take C4D in ALL areas (interface, features, speed, quality, stability). I would imagine that will be a painful thing to endure after all the work they have put into it. But there is time for MAXON to consider an Indie version because given Blender's pace of development they have at least until...hmmm....say.......some time in June before they need to start worrying. Dave

The problem with naming one person is that you can't name them all - and I would gladly give up my undeserved spot on that list because there are definitely more deserving and more talented members out there. The vast majority of Cafe members make this site a unique blend of friendship, collaboration, trust, kindness, and inspiration. I hate to say it, but this is RARE find in today's world where people say and post the most vile things under the misguided thinking that any attention is better than no attention. So my sincere thank to Igor, Hrvoje and the Community Staff (Cerbera, Rectro, Bezo, and DasFrodo) for making the Cafe not only a great community to be a part of but a damn nice place to visit...and also for all the unseen work they have done to keep it that way through the years. Dave

Be sure to revisit this thread from time to time to give us an update on your journey. We are all rooting for you to succeed! Dave

Congratulations Igor and thank you Hrvoje. Hrvoje, I would imagine that working as MAXON's in-house nodes guru and developer is becoming a bigger part of your work life right now and so I can understand the change in Cafe ownership. Right now, your scene node courses are the only ones out there that provide any in-depth training on scene nodes. Everyone else is doing one or two videos to explain some unique technique they discovered but yours is the only one that provides a deep foundation for scene node learning. Having purchased the course, it is just that: foundational learning! So (IMHO), you are leading the way for everyone else in developing, training and possibly evangelizing this next big step in C4D's development....no pressure.....and I can therefore understand and appreciate the time commitment which is required. But the Cafe is still in great hands. Just promise us that you won't be a stranger! Dave

Wolfgang (honestly, I hope you don't mind but typing "Contra....." is too much work) 🙂 Thank you so much for providing the detail explanation. I hope it didn't force you to go back and model the piece again as I think that train model already gives you enough to do! I do appreciate it though. So I am a little confused about whether complex poles should be avoided in ALL cases. I guess for hard surface modeling, particularly when they fall on a flat plane, it is okay but just wondering why you would not have connected the polygons as crudely shown below: Not only would this eliminate a complex pole, but quite a few triangles in the process. Does it matter in hard surface modeling or in cases where texturing can easily be accomplished with a simple triplanar projection? Youtube videos such as this one tend to support NOT following a rigid discipline of quads. Personally, I push myself to only model in quads but there are some situations where the work required to remove some quads far outweighs the benefits. As we have the top 3 quad modelers on the Cafe following this thread (you, Cerbera and Vector), I would love to get your insights into when it is okay to let a triangle slip into the work every now and then. Dave

These two pieces alone provide both modeling inspiration and a host of great lessons on quad management: I would love to see more especially the object on the left. Just exactly how did you blend in the two external cylinders. Obviously only half the object was modeled as it was symmetric, but did you bring in an external cylinder, connect it, fillet it and then dissolve edges to get quads or did you create the cylinder out of the existing topology? There are some techniques in there that are worth hearing more about. Again, I just love your work. And once again, I get a headache thinking about aligning all those elements into position. Dave

For those that will still need their "how did they do that" itch scratched by reading behind the scenes articles, I would recommend "befores & afters". In addition to an on-line presence they also just came out with a print version that will be released 4 times a year. They have just started with Issue 1. The start of another 40 year relationship? Not sure as Cinefex set a pretty high bar but I may get Issue 1 just to check them out. I will give the founder of "befores and afters" (Ian Failes) props for a rather touching tribute to Cinefex found here. It appears he had the exact same moment of discovery that I had when first saw the magazine. Dave

After 40 years and 172 issues, Cinefex: the premiere journal of visual effects coverage, is closing its doors forever. The pandemic not only robbed the magazine of content (as movies were not being released), but it also robbed the magazine of sales channels as stores closed and advertisers as they too were struggling. This is heartbreaking given that I grew up with Cinefex. I still remember my first contact with the magazine in a Barnes and Noble bookstore. Sitting on the magazine rack was a beautiful finished shot of a Taun-Taun from The Empire Strikes Back standing on top of a snow covered hill. That's all there was on the cover along with the word "Cinefex". There was no catchy slogan to tell you what the magazine was about. Nothing to tell you what articles were inside. Just an amazing visual effects shot and the word "Cinefex". But honestly, you did not need anything else to tell you what it was about. As huge fan of Ray Harryhausen movies, I always loved stop motion animation and was just blown away by the work of Phil Tippet in the Empire Strikes Back. So seeing this magazine just electrified me. It was Issue 3 and I immediately ordered Issue 1 and 2 and signed up for a subscription. I have been with them ever since. I do believe that studying how they made things look real BEFORE computer animation makes you a better CG artist. In addition to discussing technique, Cinefex also took on the harder subjects of "why" artists put things into a shot to achieve the desired look. Cinefex articles probed after this illusive concept: what details need to be added to a shot that will only be noticed if they are NOT there! That is a tough concept to teach. Long before CGI took us through the uncanny valley in creating photo real humans, Cinefex took us through the uncanny valley of building miniature towns, forests, waterfalls, airplanes, trains, and cities. The techniques discussed in lighting, creating atmosphere, making things look like they are in space or underwater and how to move the camera realistically through an SFX miniature all translate perfectly to improving your work as an artist in CGI. Cinefex taught me what makes something look real and they have stayed with that focus even as the technology changed from analog to digital. I will definitely feel their absence going forward and while in NO way comparable to all that people have lost during this horrible pandemic, I still do feel a sense of loss. Dave P.S. The last issue (#172) has already been completely sold out.

Great modeling...but that is to be expected from the "Quad Father" (wow...I wish I had thought of that handle). I love the style and that little girl has "quads to die for"....hmmmm....that didn't quite come across the way I wanted it to. But just wondering if the pupils appear a tad too close together. Dave

I need all the capabilities of the C4D object manager, material manager and texture manager (now the Project Asset Inspector --- not a fan of that name) and the ability to make changes to a parametric primitive after it has been added to a scene (loosing that capability in Blender's as soon as you drop the tool really irritates me). Having the same intelligence that C4D has in accessing and changing everything in the scene would remove a lot of the inherent "clunkiness" of Blender. But I am beginning to feel that Blender experts embrace its quirks. Having to delete the cube with each new scene irritates but seems to be a big part of the Blender culture....kind of like the Suzanne primitive. Since when does clunky and/or odd become a selling point? But I will admit that I do envy those who have mastered the program such that is navigation is now second nature. They are getting a really capable package that maintains a frenetic development pace such that its toolset in some ways beats their competition in terms of features and stability ---all for free! Dave

Wow. Apart from it being just gorgeous on every frame, it is also a shining example of humility...… Why you ask? Well, amongst all the credits being shown, they never snuck in one for themselves! Not sure I could ever be that humble after creating something that good. Dave

The 3D enthusiast in me loved the topology and the modeling detail but got a headache thinking about aligning all those parts. The mechanical engineer in me loved it. The bottom springs connected to the 4 bar linkage keep pressure against the power lines while the top four springs keep the connecting bar standing straight - otherwise it would be pushed back as it ran against the power lines. Nice design. Don't forget that the bottom feet probably have some form of electrical isolation underneath them to insulate the rest of the train from the current. Can not wait to see more! Dave

While not a magazine used for learning a particular application, I do love Cinefex. A great magazine that goes into professional FX on major motion pictures. They also have an iPad edition as well. What I do get out of that magazine are the discussions on how the artists strived for that last 5% between what looks good to what looks real. That attention to detail in lighting, texturing, camera shake, and the art of putting detail into the scene that you will ONLY notice if it is NOT there. Those are invaluable and very hard to learn lessons. Unfortunately, what was once a bi-monthly publication has not produced a magazine since June, 2020 due to COVID. If the movies are not being released, then they can't publish the magazine. I hope to get the next issue in February and looking forward to reading up on Season 2 of the Mandalorian....but we will see. Dave

Absolutely agree...just look at my avatar. Unfortunately, I think this will fall on deaf ears. Now, IMHO, indie is another word for hobbyist. If you are a true independent one-person shop generating a revenue with C4D, then the subscription model probably works for you. What you create is for clients and not for yourself. Once the job is completed, your attachment to the work ends when the paycheck comes in. But hobbyists like myself are attached to our work. We want the option to hold onto what we have created without being locked into a yearly subscription cost. For us, it is all about the end-game. At some point, we will stop using the program and everything we have created is now gone as well. That creates a sense of loss that keeps us from going with subscriptions. Many on this forum are not hobbyists and have trouble understanding this point of view. But if an indie version is to be considered, then there has to be some limitations to it. Usually these are render size limitations as that pretty much keeps anyone from doing commercial work with the indie package. As for me, I am good with some limitations on render size in exchange for a lower annual perpetual license cost. As long as it looks good on my monitor, I am good. Not sure if the other packages you quoted have limitations or not with the indie version. The other point I agree with you on is that I too love C4D. It just feels like home. It all makes sense. It has an internal logical consistency in how it is designed. The software does NOT get in the way of creation. That is tough to walk away from but at some point there could be financial situations that force that decision. Honestly, I do fear that day. But...as lofty as your objective is, be prepared for nothing to come of it. Dave