FLima

I really am @Igor, but I have to be honest, there were several moments where I thought "Damn. why this isnt like it is in C4D?" Their material manager is horrible... working on more than 10 materials in one project, having to scroll through all the options manually, and not simply dragging and dropping... feels like a very technical software, and not a creative one. Also, not having groups, adding one deformer/modifier to a whole group, instead, having to add things individually to each object in the scene.....linking.. etc.. just not fun. You probably feel some of those things in Houdini too no? Missing some things from C4D. But yeah, being able to animate a character extremely fast, it is something I never experienced before in C4D, it is so freeing! And checking at the same time lighting, materials, etc... it is a whole new deal. Not sure if Blender is production ready for me yet.. But I feel that, at least for my short film, it could be a great starting point. This, is.. AMAZING!!! You probably used an Iphone PRO right? It is the only one that has the multi-camera system? The details you captured on this, this is the first time I see something like this! I've seen a similar technology before, over these past few weeks, but nothing at this level of detail. The topology sucks.. but it is a typical decimated mesh from Zbrush, super easy to retopologize on top of it. Please, share more of thhese with us hehe!

Today I've been making some tests with character animation, duplicating some of my previously rigged characters in Blender... and one of them was this crappy dinosaur, badly rigged hehe... I've been following a bit of Pierrick's new animation course called ALIVE, and... got a bit carried away.. one thing led to another and...

I think my previous reply was a bit too extreme towards you too, sorry. And you are right. a paying customer, for the company, it is ultimately, a happy customer. And yes, let's not kid ourselves.. I feel this is a point of no return. But I feel that, differently than Adobe, that has no direct competition to their whole package of softwares (there are some good options, but not industry wide Im afraid)... C4D has Blender, Maya, 3Ds max to compete with.. they are the best at Motion Graphics, but when it comes to 3D, there are options for sure. So.. my hope? Would be.. at least... a decently priced indie license. Something that Autodesk already does with Maya. Everytime I mention how much I pay for Maya here in Brazil, my friends here gets a bit confused..thinking Im pirating the software or something... They cant believe this is what Autodesk is charging for... even with all their limitations for indie license. PS: im switching slowly to Blender and Maya... but yeah.. I wish I was 25 again to get a fresh start with these softwares hehe.

This "If you are bothered, stop complaining and go somewhere" mentality usually comes from a place where a certain issue doesnt affect someone personally And if that is the case, well.. good for you. You like the software and has no problems with the business model many others here, and that is cool. But it doesnt matter if you find this conversation tiring, because these issues are not being discussed to keep you entertained. A company screwed over its long time and perpetual customers, so it is expected that this conversation will happen (and will continue to happen until they provide a better solution). You can simply chose not to take part of it. Im sure that a vaste majority of people here understands how business works, and that a group of vocal customers wont change a new mentality this company has (specially if they are making good profit, which seems to be the case). But after you invest more than a decade of your life learning and using a software, and thousands and thousands of dollars, paying for the software itself and the many plugins the software needs to be useful commercialy, you damn right people will discuss about this. This "move on" you speak of it is not a process of a week, a month, etc... it can take years for someone to really learn a software professionaly and use it for their work. I am already in this process as many others here on this forum are too. But it doesnt mean I need to stay quiet on this matter. But again, you can simply continue with your normal life, and take part on another conversation that you personaly have interest on, or entertained by.

I understand that you are in a weird position.. and saying something that somewhat agrees with us, could put you on a tough spot. Also that you are not involved in these decisions, nor speaks on behalf of the company. But I dont think it is necessary to be dismissive about the clear issues that people had (and still have) with this "deal". Whatever attempt to defend this new business model is ultimately rendered null, because we are now paying for a temporary chance to use a software that we used to own. If times were difficult in the past, or you didnt see an improvement you wished on the next version, you could have chosen not to upgrade C4D for a year or two, and still have full support and bug fixes for at least a year (I bought R18 back in the day, and I remember vividly that). If the yearly costs were similar to what Maya asks for a Indie license, then I would say "yeah, awesome, I can afford this, and there is very little chance I wont be able to afford this next year" , but this is not the case with C4D. Now the "deal" is pretty much: - you have to pay every year this huge chunk of money. - you dont own the software, never will, dont pay next year, your files will become cute icons on your computer. - you dont get substantial updates to the software anymore. There is no more pressure to keep users wanting the next best update.. because well... they are forced to pay forever if they want to use the software, why improve? People can try to paint this in a different, colourful and nicer way, but ultimately, this is the reality. We got a horrible deal. It is like a bank taking back your home and saying "hey, but now you pay us rent, and it is a bit less than you used to pay for mortgage! Plus will paint a wall and fix a broken window every now and then ... of course, stop with the rent, and you will be homeless."

First of all, I trully appreciate you adding your opinion and perspective here. For sure, there are a lot of factors that I cant see it from my point of view. For instance, the cost issues, it affects differently for different people, specially depending on what part of the world they are from. Im not a company owner, Im a one-man studio, so these costs of subscriptions, for me personaly, escalate quite quickly by the end of the month, and with a non steady income (some months I might get some projects, others not so much..) it feels quite scary the idea that I might not be able to have access next month to my own essential work files. Sure, C4D monthly is alright.. (not cheap.. but alright) but add other things that are piling up to this weird subscription model, and suddenly, you are paying for a full C4D license every year, without actually getting a license... not really owning anything. You mentioned that C4D finds a lot of traction with people that have a choice, but this is ultimately the big issue here. There isnt really a choice anymore, there is this fading impression that we have a choice right now as a customer... but in reality we dont. Maxon is punishing whoever doesnt pick the "right choice" for them (i.e subscriptions) by putting whoever picks perpetual licenses (the choice they dont want you to pick) in extreme disadvantages: - No more access to a great learning database for the software! - Only 2-3 months of bug fixes on a 3.5k dolars software. (whoever bought the R23 last year, didnt get the horrible timeline copy/paste bug fix for instance, and never will) - No more maintenance, only the giant price for updates. - No access to mid-year update, having to wait 6-7 months to have a chance to get a new feature on a software. It just feels very short sighted to treat people, who have worked with the software for such a long time this way... removing them from the possibilities and features features they were able have acess to since the beginning of the C4D's history. Look at what Pixologic is doing for example, I bought Zbrush 4 years ago, perpetual, full price, etc... and they continue to offer free updates ever since. They started the subscription model 2 years ago, and they continued to give equal support and updates to both users, perpetual and subscription. There is no shady "Hey subscription users, you will get this first! Perpetual.. well.. later this year" type of business. I guess the keyword in the end is choice.

I just checked, and you are right Mike! Thank you so much for clarifying that. A bit of relief in the midst of so many weird decisions of this industry!

Thank you so much guys ❤️ !

Hey @Mike A, thanks for the info! I got a bit confused, went through so many pages trying to understand this. Out of dispair I bought a maintenance (that goes until December, my maintenance end date) So that means, I can still buy a new one next year? That would make the situation, at least render wise, a bit better!

That is super cool! The node system seemed a bit "scary" to me at first, but now, more and more I see how awesome it is I am scared to try Houdini and get even more divided in between 3d softwares haha! A very close friend of mine just switched to Houdini, and the visuals and cloth simulations he shares with me... it is simply brilliant!

As soon as I heard about volumetrics changes in 2.93 using Eevee, I wanted to recreate the looks of one of my favourite games for PS4/PC/Switch - "INSIDE" And after 6 hours (and a character I had rigged already in Blender before) I think it got pretty close 🙂 Here is a test, using only eevee, combining the toon look with a more realistic shade for the rest: https://vimeo.com/591316074/2c3f8c0e15

These are so nice Igor 🙂 Looking forward to see more things! PS: Not sure you are into character animation.. but is it good in Houdini? I saw so little things about it.. and only one short film using it for character animation.

I couldnt agree with you more. I had to unfortunately renew my license now because of an ongoing project, and it would take a lot of time to adapt and transfer everything to Maya (which I am using it now, indie version, 1/4 of what C4D costs yearly here in Brazil). And I am also a perpetual license holder for Redshift... render engine that had abysmal updates this year... and yes, the feeling that.. I have exactly 8 days left to purchase a maintenance for my license for the last time, so that I can use the render engine that I invested 1000 dollars in total (license and maintenances) so that I can have a chance to get some new feature that might not even arrive... it is.. absurd to say the least. The lack of care and respect towards perpetual customers, this has to be some anti-consumer practice right there. After this 31st of August, you have no chance whatsoever to update the license for Redshift that you paid for unless you accept to move in with their subscription plan/scam. All this could be easily solved by simply offering customers a choice. Can I not join the subscription model? Could exist a rent-to-own model also? Can I buy a perpetual license and not have ONLY two months of support on the freaking software that costs thousands of dollars?!?! Can I be treated in a similar way that subscription users are treated, after investing so much on the software with time, money, and countless plugins to overcome every single little thing that the software STILL is not capable of doing, including the render (which now is also losing support)? By the amount of reaction on the Redshift forums (And the usual patronizing tone from the Maxon associates with their typical "hey, we know what is best for you" type of answer) I know I am not alone with this sentiment. I will continue to use C4D for a year (well, specially now that I had to pay an absurd amount of money for a freaking rental software...) but I am doubling my weekly work hours, just so that I can Invest time and energy on learning a new software, and most important of all, on a company that I feel has more touch with reality. Autodesk is no saint... well, far from it, but at least offers a extremely professional software, that already comes with a superb and professional render engine - Arnold, for exactly 1/4 of what Maxon is asking.

Honestly, I was pretty upset until I read this.. (best thing since Jesus appearing on burnt toast) haha Thanks for this. And yes, you are right. I am on the minority here, upset at a very clear giant issue... But I will take that as my cue to leave, and wish people who remain with C4D the best. Loved the philosophical ending to your text by the way.

This looks really cool (and weirdly delicious?)

Yes, it does make sense this. But the $800 should be a gateway for more of a "hey, do you want this shiny new features? This is the price" And honestly, after paying the full price for a perpetual..yeah, it could be steep, but it would be worth it still (if these features are of interest to you that is). But the $800 shouldnt be "hey, do you wanna be able to use... copy paste on the animation timeline for your work without a problem? Pay up" The software itself, should continue to have support for at least a year. If there is a giant issue on the software in the mean time, it needs to be fixed within this time! But what MAXON is currently doing, is not treating nicely people who invested on this full license last september... This is not okay.

Nobody is hating on perpetuals. I was actually considering it, as a last resource to stay within C4D environment.. But wouldnt you be upset, if you invested big money on a software last september, and after 2 months, the company said that it will no longer support it? Maybe you can get technical e-mail exchange with their center, but the actual software, fixing its mistakes, after the first big fix "service pack" it is bye bye. I am bafled quite honestly that not many people are being vocal and upset about this. This is anti-consumer practice at its finest. it is a company by the end of the day, and it wants to make as much money as possible, I get that. But it should NEVER be at their custommers expense!

Thanks again for the response Rick. I can understand how much of extra work/time would be involved doing a round of bug fixes for older versions, R22, R21, etc... It certainly would be impractical, for sure. But for this case specifically... we are talking about a release that was launched less than 6 months ago. Someone that put that amount of investment on the software, have just become invisible to a fix as essential as a copy/paste behaviour, this doesnt seem fair to me to be quite honest. I understand that MAXON is concentrating mainly into the subscription model (which I personally dont feel it is a good direction...but that is a whole different story and my own personal opinion) but there needs to be a continuous treatment and attention to a paying customer of a perpetual license for at least 1 year after he/she bought it no? It is an essential bug fix, not a new feature. Telling someone who bought the software less than 6 months ago "hey, too bad, you should've paid subscription instead" I dont think it is fair...

I really hope someone from MAXON can clarify this... because I honestly almost considered, thanks to a project last year, purchasing the perpetual license R23. Aside from all my previous coments regarding the updaes on this release S24, because I can see a lot of people enjoyed it (maybe I was not the target audience for it, and that is fine) But bug fixes for me, is a big deal. This copy/paste bug from timeline specifically, directly affected my production last year, specially working on 2-3 characters simultaneously. I really hope this is not the case...

So, if someone decides to invest a large sum of money into the software, they basically have no more support on faulty aspects of this software, less than 6 months after its release? This doesnt feel right at all. When you buy something, this something needs to work as it is intended, full stop. This is the way it was before the subscription model was adopted. My perpetual license of R18 got updates even 1 year afterwards with essential fixes. I understand obviously that new features are added within each release, and sometimes a new feature could already contain a fix for an old problem. But if that is the case, this needs to be more transparent than the way it is now. Locking out a fix to a problem that was in the software to only users who are willing to update and pay for the subscription it is not a way to treat people who invest in the software in the first place. It shouldnt even be legal.

I have a question regarding bug fixes on each release of C4D to the developers: There was a quite repetitive bug that happened in the timeline, when copying keyframes from one object to another (specially when working with characters, needing to copy a walk cycle from left feet to right feet for example...) that would work in a very inconsistent manner. I've submitted a ticket a few months ago about this, and pointed at this forum for the issue. I've experimented very quickly with S24 last night, and noticed that this bug is now fixed. But, what about version R23? Will it get the same fix? There hasnt been updates on version R23 for quite some time now (I check every week for it) And lets suppose, if I had decided to buy the perpetual license R23 on september last year. This version, should still be suported for bug fixes no?

Omg... I got super curious now! 😮 !! I will try to check it out on the weekend. Thanks Igor!

One thing that I've always been curious, but never heard many people talking about it... How is the character animation features on Houdini? Have you seen anything related to it @Igor ? I've never considered Houdini to be honest.. because.. the complexity scares me. But a friend just pointed out that I can buy houdini (1 year rental) for quite cheap on steam.. and... it made me a little bit curious 😮

I dont really feel like getting into the NFT debate here as of, right now, it is certain that it does have an negative effect on the environment (the only uncertainty is the actual amount of damage, as it varies from many different sources of this information). But of course, you can also see the good news about NFT's (which are usually conveniently shared by Opensea and any other website that operates with it), But if NFT's are not bad for the environment, why is MAXON suddenly decided to plant trees? Suddenly Global Warming became a concern? Right now, NFT is a cloudy and touchy subject, you obviosly have your stance on it, and I have mine, and that is perfectly fine. I will not try to change your mind about it, and you wont change mine either. But my point is, I dont want to be discussing about it on a software release, the software that I rely on with my professional life? And I really have an issue when a company focus so much on this kind of thing, and on a specific professional, that suddenly, an entire update of this software is around this!

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. But on my part, nothing really got lost on translation. it was pretty clear what the message was, but what agravated me the most was the "keep the positive attitude, lets not focus on the negative" mentality. If you are trying to do something positive for the environment, in an attempt to offset all the harm that NFT is causing to it, then MAXON needs to be open to discuss this issue, obviously, in a open and civilized manner. But not discourage people from having a negative opinion about it. "Lets not focus on the negative" is not going to suddenly make this problem disappear, and planting trees, in an attempt to offset a little the harm NFT is causing, without actually discussing this issue, becomes a shallow PR attempt of pre-damage control if we dont talk about the "negative", and not really a genuine worry about global environment. Furthermore, I dont think MAXON should be taking a stand on this, I know Beeple made the headlines everywhere, even outside the art world, but why this artist now became the biggest focus for MAXON, even creating a whole update on the software, targeting the kind of content that he creates? So why now, on top of all that, MAXON becomes an advocate for NFT?