ingvarai

Thanks for a great post, Dave! We should not have any illusions about Maxon being something else, that an entity which does business. Making money. The world is changing, and in my (old) world, I purchase and own software. Since 1994, I haven't had any "cracked" or "hacked" software on my computer, with a couple of exceptions that are not my fault. I am not a thief, I don't steal. As it is now, I need to find a "cracked" version of the Mocha planar tracker, because Boris has moved it to subscription, and has stopped the old license server. So that I cannot move my paid for Mocha from my old computer to my new computer. Ok, let them carry on. I will use my 10 Studio versions of C4D, as I still use my Adobe CS6. My last complaint here is that they are not honest enough to admit that this is pure business. Like the article David linked to explains. Just say it as it is, Maxon. -Ingvar

I also asked why they force us over to the subscription model. What you list as reasons (excuses), does not contradict a model where you maintain access to what you paid for, after unsubscribing. Let us say I have subscribed to C4D for ten years. And then stop paying. A reasonable reaction to this would have been to lock me out from new updates, but allow me to use what I already have paid for. This is what I do not understand. And I am still asking for anyone to chime in who has some thoughts about this. Again – all of this could have been implemented in the MSA. So why not? There is something going on here, that I am very interested in learning more about. -Ingvar

Having read almost all posts under this topic, I miss a discussion about the real issue her. Which is: Why do software companies choose the subscription model? Or to be more accurate: Why do software companies force their customers to go for the subscription model? I was happy with MSA, the Maxon Service Agreement for at least 5 years. What was wrong with MSA, what does subscription fix, with regard to this? For the moment, I have put the new C4D GUI, the small number of new features etc. aside. It is the subscription model which interests me right now. I haven’t seen a real serious discussion about why this is changing the software business. I have my own ideas, I have aired them before in this thread: * Piracy (easier to prevent piracy) * Maturity (software in general has become saturated with nifty features) * Hide and gloss over the lack of new functions and features, which in the earlier years always justified an upgrade * The “Hostage” effect. You are captured, if you want to have access to a particular piece of software, you’ll have to pay in October, even if you paid for exactly the same in June. This means a steady source of income for the software factory. What are your thoughts? -Ingvar

Please, you cannot use the word «subscription» in the MSA context, since MSA has little to nothing to do with today’s subscription model. MSA was a Service Agreement. An agreement I had with Maxon for at least 5 years. And I got the software to own, forever. What you write about the libraries – if it «makes a lot more sense for subscribers», as you put it, really? I must say, it also makes a lot of sense for me to have access to these libraries too, as a perpetual license customer. So what’s the problem here? What you write about the executables – I have absolutely no idea what this is all about. What executables? I am not making myself dumb, I just have no idea what «executables» in this context means. -Ingvar

* Only three months of support – I wasn’t updated on this. Man.. with all that money paid for the license.. * Cineversity – Ok, I know. A clear sign, that perpetual license customers have become a pariah caste. Can you please elaborate on these: * Libraries – what do you mean here? What are we not getting? * Losing access to executables? Have I missed something, can you explain? -Ingvar

Why can’t we agree on this: * Offering subscription licensing only, will alienate some, if not a lot of faithful old customers. Especially those who do not have a steady stream of money coming in, but instead plan their business on a per project basis, or have a non-profit use of the software. * Offering perpetual subscription licensing only will prevent occasional users to try the software in production, and will be less attractive to teams where artists are hired on a temporary basis. * A software company offering both a subscription licensing and perpetual licensing will serve most, if not all customers. The interesting topic here is why we can’t have both? Seems like we eventually end up with just one of these options. Why? The most serious case is when Boris first acquires Mocha, then stops the license server for Mocha, thereby preventing me from upgrading my PC. (I cannot move Mocha from old to new computer). Who in this forum supports such behavior? I had hoped that you guys would be interested in this phenomenon in general, why on earth the subscription model is becoming so prevalent. Because it is hard to find any benefits for the customers, going for subscription only. As an alternative, definitely. But only subscription? No. -Ingvar

If software customers were of the same kin, sure. Please read my long post further up in this thread. Maybe you’ll get a more nuanced view regarding this. Practically, what you say is that software is only for those who have a steady stream of money coming in, for those who never retire. I will soon retire, professionally. So, the subscription model means no more multimedia for me, if I had chosen the subscription model. As it is now, I can continue using C4D for my non-profit projects, as long as the Maxon licensing servers are running. Another example: I have purchased, and upgraded the Mocha planar tracker several times. Perpetual license. But in the meantime, Boris has acquired this product. And of course turned it into subscription. Now, I still have the perpetual license I paid for, right? Well, if I upgrade my hardware, there is no way uninstall and unregister Mocha in the old machine, and reinstall and register it again on the new machine. Because Boris does not allow this. And I used to like Boris and their products, have paid for some too.. Please consider this too, when you are so sure about the benefits of subscription. -Ingvar

R 25 - not for me. And I am not a customer for Maxon, we do not fit together, anymore. I am a professional programmer. Multimedia for me mainly is a hobby. An expensive hobby. Although I make some non-profit stuff for ideal purposes, like nature preservation and environment issues. And I love making plug-ins for C4D, I write them in C++. And have kept them for myself, so far, Plug-ins for animation mostly. Seems like animation in R25 has added some of the same features I came up with myself, several years ago. I have purchased all Studio versions of C4D, from R13 up to and including R23. I am getting old, and will eventually retire. But creating stuff, both programming and making multimedia presentations, is so fun, that I will continue with this for many years to come. Therefore I have purchased perpetual versions of C4D, so that I still own my software, and can play with it, also in the coming years. I was willing to pay for the R25 perpetual too, and got a Quotation from Maxon. Nice. That was until I saw in what direction things are moving now. * I am uncertain about to what extent I will at all get some real new features in C4D, before I die. * Maxon radically changed the ting I love the most in C4D - the user interface. For 26 years I have been designing and programming GUIs myself. Award winning software, commercial successful software, and tons of tailored proprietary solutions for customers. So I have an idea about this, seen from the workshop, not only as a user. That Maxon managed to wreck such a beautiful user interface, is beyond me. Yes, you can to some extent revert to the old layout, but not to all those familiar harmonic colors - they are gone. I will assert that the pre R25 super GUI was C4Ds trademark. That was the main reason I chose C4D in 2012. Now, Maxon cannot make software only for me. I understand that. Things are happening in the software business, things that I feel are under-communicated. * Piracy, to what extent is this the driving force behind the subscription model? * Generic maturity, to what extent is this the driving force behind the subscription model? With maturity I mean a generic saturation of features in today's software. In 1999, I would not use 10 years old software. Not even 3 years old applications. Today, I use Adobe CS 6, Illustrator, Photoshop and After Effects, and still have not discovered more than a fraction of all the fantastic functions in these applications. So, I think I can make fantastic animations in the C4D versions I have, for many years to come. Worth mentioning, I recently renewed my perpetual Redshift license, and I also have a running perpetual license for X-Particles. Now, I will continue to write C++ utilities for C4D, and make animations and renderings. Having fun in my own cave. And I just have to accept that Maxon needs a steady stream of money, and accept that I am not the kind of customer they need for their future. -Ingvar

I was about to purchase a renewal for my Redshift. It seems that is possible, at least for one more time. About R25 being perpetual - I need to ask Maxon directly. -Ingvar

Maxon is following the rules and laws of economics principles. In this world, «gratitude» is a foreign word. Financially, a company lives in the present and in the future, the past has no relevance. Faithful customers may be of interest, as long as they stay faithful and generate revenue. It is obvious that the subscription model is what counts now. All over the place. For me it is a tragedy. For several reasons. I am a C++ programmer and have developed several C4D Extensions (plug-ins) which enhances C4D a lot for me. Besides of that, I am a «hobbyist» and use C4D for nonprofit projects only. My profession is programming. The subscription model means that I cannot retire, and use what I already have paid for. It is money out of the window. I jumped the Adobe ship, when they started this, and am stuck with the Adobe Creative Suite CS 6. Almost ten years old now. Additional problems arise in the software world. I have purchased several versions of the Mocha Planar Tracker. Paid versions who I own. Now, Boris has acquired Mocha, and put it on the subscription wagon. This means that the license mechanism is broken, and that I cannot move my Mocha software to a new machine, when I upgrade my hardware. This is horrible, to put it mildly. One may wonder when this happens to my C4D versions, I have them all, C4D Studio full paid from R13 and on.. There are several reasons for this change to the subscription model. One of them, not often mentioned, is that software nowadays eventually has become mature. I can use a ten years old version of Photoshop, it works like magic, and has so many nice features that I will hardly explore and take advantage of more than a fraction of them. The same applies to C4D, and not the least to the aforementioned Mocha Planar Tracker. So the customers may want to skip a version or two. Or five. Which means revenue losses for the software houses. The only way for hem to keep money coming in, then, is to turn their customers into hostages. Also called subscribers. -Ingvar

Where do you have this information from? You cannot trust anyone, any longer. Almost exactly two years ago, I had an e-mail correspondence with someone at Redshift. And that person at Redshift said it would be business as usual, that the Maxon acquisition would not interfere with Redshift's way of doing business. And now we are here in 2021, and Redshift has decided to do the subscription, they too. To me, and many others, a subscription model may be money out of the window. Renting software is not for me, I must own it. BTW, your signature says that you have C4D R24. Shouldn't it be S24? -Ingvar

No, I meant R24. I thought there would be a version called that, since I have R23. Ok, so let me rephrase my question: Does anyone know if there will be a perpetual version released this autumn, like it has been the last years? I have purchased all Studio versions since R13. -Ingvar

Does anybody know whether there will be a C4D R24 perpetual version? I was shocked to see that Redshift is going the subscription way.. So if C4D becomes subscription only, I'm outta here. -Ingvar

All in all, Dan, you have some real valid points. My (a little harsh) reaction to the R23 overall first-impression, stems from my feeling of MAXON releasing yet another tech preview. When it comes to the "wrong joint orientations", I fixed this myself with the C++ plugins I programmed myself already in 2013. Pity I don't have the time / resources right now to make these plugins mature enough the be public available. I also agree that the sum of the new animation enhancements is larger than one might think, just casting a glance at it. I am about to purchase an upgrade to R23 now. -Ingvar

Yup - you found it! And, if you subscribe to the Truebones newsletter, now and then you will get "500 BVH files for free", or a whole bunch of other animations for a reasonable price. Considering the overwhelming amount of already captured animations out there - available and free, then Mocap inclusion in C4D is somewhat peculiar. It doesn't hurt. And it is nice. But it doesn't add any real value. -Ingvar

Ok. No big problem. It just creates a dissonance with me. Let’s look at it this (my) way: MAXON C4D is a super professional 3D solution. MAXON C4D oozes quality, because of being programmed in an almost military-spec’d, or even space technology spec’d way. It is rock solid, hardly will crash, ever. MAXON C4D is a very expensive. These factors also apply to a Rolls Royce car. The feeling I got when saw these Mocap animations, was how I would feel if Rolls Royce came bundles with a set of extra gas station acquired tires, and that this was advertised. Tucked away in the trunk, ok. But not advertised. -Ingvar

Have you tested it copying an animation form an FBX imported character? Tested it with imported BVH files, where the X,Y,Z axis is oriented differently than the C4D standard? Gimbal locks - catered for? What I reacted to the most, was the inclusion of Mocap files. Why? There are literally thousands upon thousands of free BVH Mocap files out on the Internet. If I recall correct, there is(was) a University or an official institution, that released their whole BVH library, for free. Besides of all this, you have Truebones where you can purchase thousands of mocaps. For bipedals as well as quadropods, as well as birds, insects and so on. I myself have a considerably large library of Mocaps/BVH/FBX animations, all kinds of movements. So I don't understand why MAXON included these rather few Mocaps. Because, if you do animation, it will be pure luck if you at all find what you are looking for there, after all. That's my experience. As a result of this, despite my own large (steadily growing) library, I use Kinect sensors to record my own movements, when needed. -Ingvar

The last year with MSA cost me 740,- € Upgrade from R21 -->R23 is 850,- € All prices are ex VAT To what extent the MSA was more expensive here in Norway, than in some other countries, I do not know. But probably. Now, considering that most stuff costs more this year, than last year, I didn't even lift an eyebrow, when I saw this price. As I have said, C4D is a super-expensive hobby/free time activity for me. I do live on the dream of publishing my C++ plugins, and perhaps make some money. But that will happen at the end of a long tunnel I am in now.. I have one strong principle though - I do not rent software. Jumped the Adobe ship some years ago, last version I own is the Creative Suite CS6. So to sum it up: MAXON can run their subscription model as much as they want, for me, as long as I can purchase perpetual licenses. And - they keep their license servers running 😆 The upgrade price is absolutely acceptable. -Ingvar

Hi folks, thanks a lot for your replies. I contacted MAXON, and got a link to the shop where I can purchase an upgrade R21 --> R23. The price is approximately the same as my old MSA agreement. So, I have nothing to complain about, regarding this. In fact, if they continue to offer me an annual upgrade, like this, I am satisfied. I have had a look at the new features in R23. And here are my comments: I have no idea why I need Red Giant inside C4D. I feel these effects belong in post, in a video NLE, After Effects etc. I have no use for a realistic preview/render inside the viewport (reflections etc.) I do not do much character modeling and seldom UV painting. The user interface has gotten several nice new features, that I probably will miss if using older versions, when getting used to R23. New generator(s) and deformer(s) can be really useful, when getting used to them. And in some cases, be worth the upgrade alone. In the animation field, there is a lot of new stuff. Things I ought to be excited about. Because I do animation, yes. But having given it some thought.. these new features somehow pile up, they add to an already comprehensive toolbox in C4D. And I wonder if I will spend more time getting used to the new features, than the time I save. Now - I do wonder about how many out there really use C4D for character animation. The reason I ask, is that I see little practical use of the new stuff, if I were a professional character animator. Seven years ago, in 2013, I did a lot of character animation. And since my profession is programming (not multimedia), I wrote several character animation plugins in C++. My own version of Character Definition, written in 2013, is, IMHO, way better than the one in R23. Is uses a different logic, and has several important additional functions that an animator must have, as I see it. Currently these plugins compile for R14 --> R19. (No plans to publish/release any time soon) So I am not sure. I'll sit on the fence for a while. And wait until the feeling of paying for a tech preview is gone 🙂 But most important - for me it is still business as usual between me and MAXON. If I wish, I can upgrade my C4D, get a perpetual license for the new version, and the price is the same as before. -Ingvar

Has everyone left? I purchased C4D R13 Studio in 2012, and was on the MSA all the time since then. I have all C4D Studio versions, including R21. Due to several reasons, I have lived under a stone the last months, when it comes to C4D. The start of September used to be the the highlight of the year, a new C4D version released!! This year - silence. What is the status now? Is there an R22? Will there ever be? Subscriptions is out of the question here. I use C4D for non-profit projects. I buy a version, own it, and can use it whenever I want. Take it out of the closet, brush off some dust, and there it is. I pay for Redshift and X-Particles, for the same reason. The stuff I bought doesn't just evaporate. My computers are chock full of expensive software. I have legal licenses for everything. Red Giant, Boris, a pile of Steinberg FX, various video NLEs plus plus plus. And all the other companies, manufacturing these products, they send me e-mails with upgrade offerings. Because, they like my money. From MAXON - silent as in a tomb. I haven't gotten any e-mails form MAXON offering me an upgrade from R21. NONE. So, perhaps the last one leaving here can kindly turn off the light.. -Ingvar

Your'e hired! This work is so impressive - I have no words. For me, C4D is a tool used to get the message through. And this technique is even more efficient for this purpose than all the super-realistic renderings in the world there is. -Ingvar

>If your MSA extends past our next perpetual release you will get that as well. It is impossible for me to get anything tangible out of this. I pay for software in order to get software licenses. The MSA was mostly convenient for MAXON, making it possible to forecast incomes and to better plan for the future. For the customers, it meant earlier access to releases, and favorable pricing. But at the end of the day, as a customer, you have to get perpetual licenses, otherwise it is money out of the window. For the time being, as opposed to the last years, it is not clear anymore what I get out of the MSA agreement. For me, MAXON can cancel the agreement immediately. I will then see if there will be an R22 I can purchase using normal upgrade policies. -Ingvar

My thoughts exactly. Firstly: Lots of Thank You to you, Cairyn, and to the others here who have given valuable input. I am happy to see you folks engaged in this, even if it is not your particular case here. I will reply to DMcGavran in a separate post. -Ingvar

Hi Cairyn, now I am really confused. What you say here, is that it is business as usual regarding MSA? "MAXON told Greyscalegorilla that the MSA program will no longer continue" https://greyscalegorilla.com/2019/08/cinema-4d-redshift-subscription/ If you use the chart here, released from GeryscaleGorilla, there is no mention of the MSA whatsoever after September 2019. https://greyscalegorilla.com/2019/08/what-version-cinema-4d-buy-subscribe/ I am absolutely 100% confused. Not the least because it is not clear that there even will be a R22 at all / or when it, in case it will come, will be released. The yearly cycle of one release 1.st September can be broken. I believe this is realistic, when I read the rather cryptic statements coming from MAXON. So to continue with MSA one more year to get R22 at a good price, it seems very strange right now. Considering MAXON officially has stopped MSA and that MAXON might go the Microsoft route with Windows 10: Constant C4D updates, no new major version. -Ingvar

I believe I did start paying for the MSA in October 2014. And not i January 2015. Which contradicts the statement that "MSA follows the calendar year". If this is the case, I have already paid for 5 full years. I will have to check my account books. -Ingvar