BoganTW

Igor your plan for H19 tutorials sounds like a cool idea, please keep us posted.

Suspicion (not much of a secret). Maxon have multiple programmers working on core stuff. One of them popped up in a Rocket Lasso thread 6(?) months ago and obliquely said they'd only just started work on a feature they'd been waiting to work on for a few years, presumably because all the pieces (core + nodes + whatever) were finally in place. There are plenty of candidates for what that could be, we'll find out whenever we find out. Presumption. The current slightly staggered pace of updates will continue for a couple or a few years, though I'm guessing the updates next year could or will definitely be a bigger deal than the ones that popped up this year. Prediction. When those remaining hurdles of putting the core stuff together are done and complete, those same programmers will all be free to jump into seriously digging into all sorts of new cool features that have been awaited for a while. Observation. The staggered (pro description) or gimped (neg description from non fans) schedule of updates isn't because anyone anywhere is telling people to go slow or be tricky or rip people off, but simply because the decision to redo the core was a massive hefty giant one that has led to whatever it has led to, and various cool hypothetical features (new dynamics, Bodypaint redo, ocean sim, replacements for Pyrocluster and Thinking Particles which each have their 20th anniversary next year) can't be looked at until the super duper core bits are finished. Noseman is talking a lot about Face tracking on Twitter, what's going on there?

Righto, will do. Let’s stick to R25.

IceCaveMan. No arguing from me, but what year are you moving on again? You first announced you were moving on two years ago. No hurry. Let’s give it a few more years, say half a decade, and possibly the deep wounds inflicted by a subscription option and a UI refresh might have begun to heal by then. If not you’re welcome to hang around for a further five years whining, this will give you plenty more chances to get those feelings of dismay and betrayal off your chest.

Yawn. If this was a Blender thread, and you were making (typically quite smart) observations about stuff you'd done or noticed or observed in Blender, none of my posts mentioning you would be negative. See if you can figure out why some of your participation in this thread elicits a shrug, puzzlement, annoyance, disdain or pity from others. I'm not the only one who feels like this. At a certain point, the only person who needs to be bothered about the anger you feel towards C4D is you. The rest of us can happily ignore your extreme commentary as a rant. And my gentle suggestion that staying aaaaangry - so angry! - about something you ostensibly moved on from two years ago isn't great for your health wasn't an attack. If Blender isn't cutting the mustard for you after all this time, let us know. It'll be interesting to hear why its shortcomings still have you constantly checking back to see how C4D is going. Because if Blender was making you super happy, you wouldn't be super bothered by anything happening with C4D. Because why would you care? But seeing you continually raise your head above the parapet to stomp your feet about C4D's progress suggests that Blender isn't completely fulfilling your interests. So this is actually good to know. Blender seems to be the app where it can be polished, tidied up and given away for free, yet it doesn't quite carry the same import as whatever C4D is doing. If Blender is more interesting, start a thread and tell us what is interesting about it. It would be a positive conversation. If Blender is less interesting, that's fine too.

That's a lot of C4D commentary from a guy who is apparently happy using Blender. I"m surprised you have the mental energy to keep thinking about both apps. Maybe just pick one and spend your energies there? It's kind of hard to judge continual glad-half-empty rants from a guy who - more often than not - acts online like his personal and professional life have crashed and burned through the duration of an evening, and is taking out his raw anger at humanity by screaming furiously at strangers sitting at the local bar. You're clearly not going to use R25. And you're apparently not going to use C4D again. So it beats me why you're poking your head in here, waving your arms around, and growing increasingly red faced. If Chris Schmidt ever expresses raw anger at C4D's releases and direction, I'll take notice. But he's enthusiastic about a lot of the new release. And he's frankly providing the community more insight, help and guidance than you have for a long, long while. You have more than 1300 posts here. I'd say at least a couple of hundred of those are the ABSOLUTE SAME 'woe is me, a change in C4D has hurt me deeply, I'm spiteful and unhappy' garbage posts that you throw up each release. Blender does four releases a year. It really must say something that those four releases seem to affect your life less than the two that come each year from Maxon. At a certain point - and this is going to happen sooner rather than later - you'll be the sour grapes guy wandering in and ranting, while the rest of the users continue on and happily use their app of choice. But rather than convincing them to worry about Maxon and C4D, they'll more worried about your own personal health. Maybe let it go?

I'm guessing that the UI work they've done (which looks like a lot) was ready for R25, and the UI work they didn't do yet (which might be a bit) will be ready for S26. So maybe that stuff will get fixed soonish, Rick mentioned on Rocket Lasso there were probably more small UI tweaks to come. But the big stuff has been done and is what you see.

Mazurbr - yeah I remember you said 'Adobeguy' wasn't meant to be demeaning or insulting, even though to my ears it sounds like it is. But fair enough. He works for Maxon now and there's been a ton of posts from various folks saying Dave M. is bringing evil Adobe subscription methods into the Maxon fold, so despite your assurances - and I believe you, I guess - maybe understand how it doesn't come across as the most welcoming phrase in context. Since you're calling him Adobeguy due to him working once for Adobe, will you ever call him Maxonguy in the future? I've heard on the rumour mill that that is his current job. But I'm also a fan of AE and Adobe, so there you go.

Would you be happier if the Nemetschek guys had said, Dave, we know you're running Maxon, but we'd prefer it if you weren't involved in any discussions we might be having here that could affect Maxon and the various plans we have for it? I don't see the logic. Would you rather the Nemetschek guys just scratched their chins and went, we're not really sure what's going on deep in Maxon - there's a guy that's running it, but he's not here, thank Christ - but lets make some more decisions that involve Maxon, hopefully we won't screw things up, fingers crossed. This is unless the suggestion is, Dave M. was an undercover mole sent into Maxon HQ to plot its destruction deep from within. This sort of retarded conspiracy might make for a good SF show on Netflix, but doesn't help much in figuring out what is going on in life or in the world today. If someone wanted to destroy Maxon, why would they bring in a top level professional as a new CEO and have him attend trade shows and development meetings and stuff? Surely they'd just call a single meeting with Rick, Paul Babb, Srek and everyone and say, guys, you're all fired, there's some top jobs going over at Dunkin Donuts if you hurry real fast. I think dumb rubbish suggesting a global conspiracy with Dave McGavran as a covert secret agent (Dave 007) is better off being posted at Reddit, not dumped with a thud into forums here at Core4D.

Yeah it's a bit much. This puts the guy a few pages back going, 'oh man, please stop with the negativity' after my pro-Maxon posts in quite the light.

I agree. I wasn't talking about every Blender user, just the irate ones. Scroll back a couple of pages and see if you can spot one. My post was about the Blender users who are aggressive at doing two things. Saying how they've jumped over to Blender because C4D doesn't cut it. And saying how ANGRY at Maxon they are, even though they've long since left it behind for Blender. Infograph at C4D talk is another such dude. And (could be wrong) I think he used to post as Cutman here, unless there are two such guys who post exactly the same rants and are angry at exactly the same stuff. CGTalk was a fun place once, but every time it sputters back into life, he's there, waiting with baited breath with a stick to bash Maxon and Maxon fans and users over the head. Disclaimer. Generally Blender users are a happy bunch. Even the Blender Today guy has some nice Mario music playing at the start of his show. But the "I used to be a C4D guy but now I've left for Blender but I still really really hate Maxon, in case you've forgotten about the last 100 times I mentioned it" subspecies of Blender dude is a thing. And my pondering what is going on in their brains is just a result of them repeatedly inviting such contemplation through their rants. Although IceCaveMan once posted at CgTalk that he had been ranting away at the keyboard after a few too many drinks, so we have one explanation there. IceCaveMan, if you've never said this, my apologies. It is just how I remember you exiting one of the many epic and colourful threads you posted there, amid the excerpted lyrics from maudlin Golden Oldies hits, descriptions of subs as being a crime against humanity and vile personal attacks against the Maxon CEO. Ingvarai posted this funny thing earlier. "Moving to the subscription model is a sign of a) Panic, sales are plummeting or b) The need to hide what I call feature maturity, the saturation of nifty features" This makes him the first guy in the thread to suggest that C4D has too many cool features ,and the subscription model is a plot to hide the fact that they don't need to develop any more of them.

Just observing too, now that I've noticed. Blender 2.8, the big redesigned version that everyone was apparently thrilled about at the time, was released in mid 2019, two years ago. Another seven big Blender versions have followed, (2.81, 2.82 etc) with heaps of new features and polishes and additions and lots of cool stuff. The high profile dudes who jumped to Blender (around when R21 came out or thereabouts) have therefore had a couple of years of receiving heaps of features and cool modern 3D tech with their software of choice, all for free. So you just have to observe - the ex C4D dudes who are posting in this thread, who have vocally jumped to Blender, and who are still irate. Do they seem happy and satisfied with their lot? Nah. They don't. Or some of them don't, at any rate. In fact, I'm not sure if I've seen grumpier posters on a forum on the internet. (I'm not referring to the chilled out bunch here who are posting calmly btw. Thank you to everyone contributing in a nice way to this discussion). This confirms to me that there is nothing Maxon could have done which would have satisfied the unhappy dudes who keep telling us how sad they are. If they're not happy receiving those two years of features for free from Blender, I'm not sure how receiving exactly the same features and updates over the same period from Maxon - but being charged for them, rather than getting them for free - would have made them happier. This suggests Maxon is right to go their own way, take their time, do their thing. Because they could have upped the feature releases and given them out for free, and some people still wouldn't be happy. If the angry folks here think they would have been happier if Maxon had done exactly that, they should explain why they're so miserable after two years of Blender doing it. My guess - some of the people who jumped ship never really jumped, and they keep on hanging around and checking in, because deep down they hope to return, probably because they know Maxon polishes stuff a bit better than the freeware folks do.

Another few years for all the big features to come in is fine and seems about right. And since the really disaffected users who were unhappily waiting tell us that they have jumped to Blender, and are now happily using that software, not too many people will be bothered by this. Next year will be cool with a beefy S26 and an excellent R27.

Do you really feel like all that core stuff will be done and finished within the next 12 months? I feel like another three years or so is more likely.

Haha, I watched that last 15 minutes. Nick looks upbeat, glass half full, as usual. Chad just looks depressed for that whole final segment. Oh well.

Interesting GSG chat on what they think are pros and cons of the new UI. A funny discussion of a tablet issue at 22:40.

They already released R25 training on Cineversity and YouTube for free. https://youtu.be/Gqc3P_tufdY

What are the studio customers, then? Abnomal customers? I didn't know that C4D users had to be divided into normal and not normal. This is a first.

That was such a chill comment. You embody the cheerful, widely admired and pleasant aspects of the Keanu Reeves archetype. I didn't use the 'guinea pigs' phase btw, just found it odd that you'd chuck students in front of R25 without actually teaching it to them. But this is fine. I agree the Adobe method of subs is pretty good. No one in this thread is as nuts as Cutman was. What will Maxon chuck into S26?

Sad that Leigh was driven from CGTalk, she was a cool chick.

Cutman sank into a thread of profanity at one point where I read his stuff and thread, jeez, I think that guy really is going through something, this explains a lot. Whereas the only thing I am going through is the conundrum, where shall my money go this week, money for new Mac, or more chocolate and a good sit down in the local cafe with a latte while I scroll through Facebook and awkwardly flirt with the cute waitress?

FLima, you are a fine bloke, please do not take this disagreement personally. The only thing I am 'going through' is a wave of joy and coolness at how outstanding R25 looks and how it suggests a warm and rosy future with all C4D heads moving forward into a better tomorrow. You take care too buddy.

FLima, I appreciate the long, thoughtful breakdown of suggestions for what you think I should be writing on this forum, I do, but on reflection I'll write what I want to write, not what you want me to write. All that said these accusations of toxicity, anger, shaking fists and becoming red faced are strange to read about as I honestly view this as just a fun robust discussion - seriously! - with everyone making various points, and I've conceded in places where folks make a good case for their POV, including the guy above who had clear and specific reasons why subs didn't work for him. So I said, yeah, that seems fair, I can see why you might not be happy about that circumstance. Then there's the shock and dismay of me returning 'again and again' to the topic of C4D, R25 and subs in a thread that now runs over 30 pages. My god, the sheer effrontery of some guy returning to the subject and making more than one post. Someone call the cops, a forum crime is in progress and arrests must be made. If I make points you feel are inaccurate, you're welcome to advise where I'm wrong or off-base or misguided. This is normally how things work in a conversation in a thread on the internet. But rather than doing that in your fat paragraph you adopt the surfer dude Keanu Reeves persona of whoa dude, chill out, give us a break, you're coming on too strong, all this positivity is way out of line, I simply cannot handle this enthusiasm, please give us a rest from this opposing viewpoint. I'm assuming if I'd said something that you had an argument against, you would have made an argument against it. Instead, it's oh no - here's this guy with his fifth or sixth post expressing enthusiasm for Maxon and R25, and asking for questions and clarifications on why people feel the way that they do. As usual in these release threads five guys post multiple long rants about how Maxon, Dave McGavran, C4D and subs are all collectively a crime requiring Interpol to interview witnesses and gather evidence for a court case with Ton Roosendaal as the crisply spoken prosecuting attorney, but someone expresses an opposing viewpoint hinting that those same five guys are a little bit OTT, and jaws drop, looks are exchanged, someone places Chic's Le Freak (Freak Out) on the turntable, and it's whoa dude, my god, this is too much, can this man be stopped etc etc. The hypocrisy is so comical it does make me laugh. Feel free to compare my positive posts with those from folks saying C4D has been murdered, Maxon must donate to the Blender team for crimes against copyright, subs are a sign of an Orwellian 1984-style future where all of us will live in fear on the streets like those poor bastards in HALF LIFE 2. Evidently by the accounts of people with a level head who have used it, R25 is a fun and nifty release with a thoughtful new UI redo that will take some weeks to settle into and will clear the way for a cool and robust S26. Re 'you must have had a bad experience with a Blender user' - gee, do you think? Cutman at CGTalk has managed to personally crap all over what was once a robust forum though half a decade of toxic posts. He's the highest profile rep yet in C4D forums of what a great and friendly user base Blender has and his record will likely stand for a while. Although Hvanderwegen (cool user name) makes a fine post above and I like his enthusiasm for Blender V3. Re Mazurbr - "When exactly did I insult you?" Mazurbr, you've never insulted me. Instead, you've made multiple posts calling Dave McGavran 'Adobe guy' despite the fact that Dave is here in this thread and is closing in on 100 posts on this forum. Imagine everyone sitting around at a table over drinks, and you point at him and call him 'Adobe guy' to the rest of the room, hardly the definition of politeness. In this light the guy above writing 'whoa dude, please stop it with all these posts expressing positivity, I can't stand this anger and toxicity' seems even more dumb and misguided.

Personally if I was teaching 3D I'd encourage the kids to try all the various apps. Some will click with some, others will click with others. Like the chick who constantly draws anime and flowers might think C4D is the greatest, while the maths nerd with glasses and an overbite will be seduced by the techy weirdness of Houdini. At some point every software known to man will be on sub, and newcomers will look at the rants from folk wishing for a return to the past and simply shrug, "Okay boomer..."

You don't sound that at peace to me. Otherwise why are you swearing and throwing insults? (And, frankly, whining). At least you'e not touting Blender, which is typically the sign of a deeply aggrieved person, based on Blender users usual behaviour on C4D forums.. From what EJ and Chris said in their cool videos, Maxon have provided top quality benefits with this new UI change. Your comment about being a teacher seems a giveaway to be honest, since students are often a lot quicker to learn new things than the teachers, and the teachers are often the ones who sit around whining about new things turning up - ie I used to teach it like this, now I have to teach it like that, etc etc. At this rate if Maya shifts an icon at some point in the future they better be prepared for a long blast from you whining about how change is terrible. Or maybe a bit of a change is okay but too much and you start to panic. Honestly, if you're a teacher you should be able to handle this sort of thing. Teachers are paid to learn stuff, then teach it, and I'm sure you could quite easily learn this new UI if you tried. But if you say you're at peace, fine. Do something positive and start a Maya thread and sell us on the cool benefits of that software, rather than endlessly whining about what are probably fully justifiable changes made to this one. "They simply couldn't because of the UI." Yeah I think if a teacher said to me, "I haven't bothered to learn that stuff yet, can you have a look at it first because I'm scared to do so myself and haven't learned it either", I might also be thrown a bit.