BoganTW

Clever observation and I can't disagree.

So none of the people currently running and working on C4D have a passion for what they're working on? Leaving Dave out of it for a minute, I hadn't noticed all the other Maxon names that come to mind being indifferent to the subject of Cinema 4D. If bugger all has changed then what is the problem? That noted, Rick posts here, Srek posts here, Hrvoje posts here, Fritz posts here, and Dave posts here. Possibly Dave posts the least of those, so I guess you've got him there, and maybe you'd be happier if he posted less. You mention all those other forums and say they 'had' nice communities, presumably before Maxon - which doesn't run any of them - did something mysterious that soured the good old days. I'm not sure if CGTalk going down the toilet is Maxon's fault, unless Infograph there is a rogue Maxon employee. Noting in passing that since the policies are what they are, there's clearly nothing Dave could say to make folks like yourself feel better about them, so 'tone deaf' presumably just means he isn't imbibing the glass half empty that you've got hold of. Well it's a good thing you subbed then, given that there was no benefit, as it clearly would have been a disaster if you hadn't. Maxon apparently makes the sub and advertises it for people who want to sub, see the benefit of it, and like what it brings, so I suppose seeing zero benefit or use yet doing it anyway might create some odd feelings after you've done it. I'm not sure if this is a common thing with subscribers though, most of whom presumably sub because they want to, rather than subbing because they don't, like you're apparently doing. You note that you had 'several years' notice that subs were where things were going, and you'll be a better judge than me as to whether this was long enough notice or not. Not subbing would have also been a choice, given that there was no benefit in subbing and you already had the perpetual versions. But fair enough, probably I'm missing the specific reasons you found yourself in. Possibly some months or years from now the other DCC competitors will develop their software to the extent that suddenly you find them viable and you can jump ship. I'm assuming this isn't the case yet. This next bit takes the biscuit though. What a wank. Any benefits out there perhaps for a few folk by making the software cheaper and easier to access? Yeah, fuck those people, it's clearly a retrograde step and they should have kept that initial purchase price sky high. Since you're subbing you're already getting the second and third of those, particularly the third. But righto, clearly someone running a studio with multiple C4D licenses who hates subs and presumably chugs along doing C4D testing for Maxon at the same time is going to be irked when his whole studio of perpetual C4D licenses is shoved into subscription against his will. Since Maxon aren't selling perpetuals any more I'm not sure how frequently this combination of events will ever reoccur again in the future though. Maxon's focus is clearly on helping and supporting and pleasing the people who like subs, and I think this general helpfulness seems to offset the apparent cold shoulder they're giving to people who hate subs, the dramatic depiction and mafia-style callousness of which I feel you exaggerate just a tad. On page 4 of this thread 3D-Pangel guesstimated Maxon earning 400% more than usual through the pandemic and the subscription period. Did they chuck the price up by 400% or did a bunch of people find subs more attractive than trying to squirrel away thousands to buy into that first year of C4D ownership? Moot point I guess but as usual these threads show the people that were unhappy before are happier now, and the people who were not overly unhappy earlier are now sour tempered and in a black and unforgiving mood. Shrug. If I had reasons to prefer C4D perpetuals I'd maybe share the gloom, but since I really don't and since Maxon aren't going back I'm assuming you'll eventually find some direction or solution that leaves you happier than the sour, mean-spirited whinge posted above.

Are they keeping the receipts to show to their accountant at the end of each financial year to claim it back for tax / business reasons, or just a hobbyist chucking money away because they like mucking around in 3D. Bit of a difference and one of them probably 'needs' to do those things more than the other. I'm in Australia though so maybe people elsewhere can't claim software expenses on tax like we can.

That will keep you busy for a long while. Even Houdini alone would.

It's pretty cheap. That one I'd be happy to throw money at them annually if they'd update faster. But I'll have a good look early next year. Moho animation software is the other one I'll be checking out, 2D only but a lot of fun.

I'm enjoying my sub. Come next year when I re-sub I'm going to skip / pause for one or two months to look at DaVinci Resolve and Affinity Designer for a bit, get a bit more fluid with those, then re-sub to C4D. Totally flexible and I'll be restarting with their April 2023 release under my belt (+ maybe its first bug fix). Generally I feel it's up to me when I re-sub, rather than thinking, oh jeez I better hurry up and upgrade to C4D R31 or else it'll be even pricier when R32 rolls around.

Agree. Fascinating to see that after some enthusiastic comments re S26, Matt generally seems Over It re C4D and / or Maxon. Don't want to put words in his mouth, 'over it' is copyright 2022 BoganTW and not him.

I totally get what you're saying, but was there a stronger sense of community with Maxon back when the guys that ran it were in perpetual hiding and their Youtube channel was stuttering along? Now they're all popping up regularly and Noseman is chatting to posters during the live Training Team broadcasts and McGavran and others are jumping in here on a regular basis. Probably the sense of community is different, but given what I've just noticed I'm not sure how the sense of community has completely evaporated. And if many people are subbing then it suggests many people aren't fussed that subs are a thing and consequently aren't irked that Maxon has brought in subs. The lacklustre update seems to have only very recently changed, but changed it finally has, so I think for some - not all - they may be happy where Maxon is going.

Thoughtful comment from Matt (Mash) above. I think in another year or two or polishing and features the Blender guys will be even further ahead in various areas. I have no interest in looking at it but many will. I figure a decade or more has gone by with this rewrite, another 5 years isn't that long. it could be worse, it could be another 10.

This is a solid summary. I need to link it the next time someone writes a long rant that basically says, because of subs, Maxon is doomed. Subs seem to be doing fine for them. So contrary to ICM's comment (and ignore this next bit ICM as I already know you disagree with it and it'll only rub you the wrong way) subs have been a great decision for Maxon and the C4D user base. This is unless a company making less money is somehow better for the company than a company making more money. They can start chucking those profits at developing new features. Or start chucking some of those profits at some new features, I dunno, whatever floats their boat. Someone got paid to develop the past six months or more of new stuff, so McGavran must have opened the cookie jar and thrown the devs a fat handful of coins, which led to them all running around chasing the money as it rolled everywhere before stuffing it in their pockets and running over to their workstations to start rapidly typing in lots of code. This isn't to disparage the handful of folks who feel that subs are a disaster equivalent to a government sponsored false flag anthrax attack. Subs are definitely a backward step for you guys and if you don't like them, you don't like them. You guys definitely have a nuanced and thoughtful point of view and you all rock.

Shrug. Maybe Beeple has brought in big bucks but the cool 3DMotionshow videos from others don't really excude a lets-get-rich vibe. And Maxon has gone from paywalling training videos at Cineversity to offering endless longform training videos for free on their training channel. I've subbed because I wanted to, annual, and haven't thought about the payment I made half a year ago since. Some of those new human vids posted by ICM are insane, anyone who clicks with Blender will be happy with a lot of things, for sure.

I'll definitely defer to ICM's choices for videos. The ones I posted were found with a ten second search on Youtube, and I've watched none of them. I agree that hopefully people will feel confident to move as they see fit into new waters, rather than feeling frustrated with things as they currently are.

I'm not sure if anyone here has done that, certainly not me. Maybe past threads coloured your interpretation of what I wrote. I'd just be happy to see folks get to a place where they can say "Ok, I'm here now, and this is better", which whichever DLC you pick. I'd expect if you dive in somewhere new the rewards will hopefully start to make it worthwhile sooner rather than later.

Believe me, I understand, as this has been covered on this forum already many, many times. Remember? Or do you think there were things in those earlier threads that had been left unclear or unspoken? I'm pretty sure we all covered the same points, back and forth, nearly ten times apiece. My precise words were that they'd have a 'reasonably clear way forward' to get over it, suggesting that the need to make a decision and move on should now be a bit more obvious, and they have a big arrow pointing which way they should likely go if they choose. Gee, what should I do? Well, Maxon doesn't have perpetuals anymore, so if having a perpetual is the highest priority for you and you really, really hate subs, you should choose an alternative that doesn't carry those frustrations with it. I never glibly said that they 'would' get over it, as it's equally clear that some people don't want to, and a few others here and there likely never will (specifically the troll at CG Talk). You make this point yourself when you note that some people 'don't want' to get over it. Yes, correct, understood, you're right, I've noticed this too. And I have no interest in urging people to do something they don't want to do, so if their preference is not to move on, it's totally their choice and I promise not to jokily throw shade their way or make insults about how they feel about it. And I'm not doing so here. It'd just be nice if - for a few people, if they chose, and it it suited - they'd take a step that could maybe make them happier. Toby Pitman has moved to Blender and is happy. John Dickinson has moved to Blender and is happy. Igor has moved to Houdini and is happy. I'm sure others here and there have also moved on from C4D and are also happy that they've done this. Toby and John even did videos where they show C4D users how to get accustomed to the Blender UI and navigation So it seems like it's a doable thing for some people. But if the effort of switching to a new DLC and relearning all that muscle memory is more painful that what hanging around with C4D would be, then fine, by all means, do what makes you happy and stick with C4D. And as an alternative, if you do jump ship, I hope the move is easier than you anticipate and that the rewards of whatever the new DLC gives you make up for the cost of wading into newer waters. This is what I meant by saying they should be able to see a 'reasonably clear way forward'. I can't speak for anyone else as to whether they'll find it easy taking that path or not.

Shrug. Happy to see this happening as the handful of people who were clinging to perpetual now have a clear reason to jump across to whichever alternate DLC will make them happy, presumably Blender or Houdini, and people who are dissatisfied with Maxon will have a reasonably clear way forward to Get Over It, unless they're like that twit at CG Talk who was permanently damaged by Maxon and whatever else happened in his life. C4D 2023 shows good signs of their dev cycle finally picking up speed too.

Great work Igor - Broad concepts for beginners. Any ability to remap C4D navigation keys to Houdini (or not). First steps and practices to let users settle in to the software. Suggestions on how to 'get' Houdini, what you should try and learn first, which parts you should avoid looking at till later.

They also run the Cineversity forum. Very useful for questions but not a place for chatty threads like this one. I like all the stuff listed by Igor in that paragraph, sounds good and useful. Like Matthew though I question if Maxon is going to be doing another forum anytime soon. Do they need to or want to? I figure maybe for the former, probably not for the latter. If they ditched the Cineversity forum (which sometimes is down because it can't handle too many users at once) and rolled the whole Q&A thing into a new bigger forum with Dr Sassi and others in a questions / learning thread, plus added a modern forum where people could chat away, I could see that being useful. Core4D is so nicely designed. Cineversity is great for detailed answers to questions that I've had, but the look of it makes my eyes hurt, which seems a bit out of place for a company that prioritises user experience.

Apology accepted, happy to move on. Please disregard any heated responses I’ve made to your comments here and there. Your observations are frequently helpful and detailed. I hope your week ahead is a good one.

Have a look for the bit where someone said McGavran shouldn't have said anything at all. I'm pretty sure it's in there somewhere. Dave should have posted a meme, GIF or nondescript emoji instead, it would have spared us endless posts berating him for saying that he shouldn't say something. Igor and others have also made it clear in recent times that this isn't a C4D-centric forum anymore, so maybe you guys should bug Ton Roosendaal for a subscription too? Once again, Igor could likely sort all this shit out by July if he just posts a really visible donation drive with a horizontal bar graph showing progress (or lack of it), asks for a total to cover the next year or more, and guilt trips everyone to getting to the final amount. I'd pay more than 5 Euros to that

If you're after the slightly more cartoony look that EJ's video has then I'm sure Blender can handle it somehow. Compared to C4D it seems clunkier in some areas, many miles ahead in others.

Hey I didn't say it was a unique occurrence.

Nothing you've said has been off putting particularly. I think I've found all your comments that I've read thoughtful, enjoyable, or have offered food for thought. I've got to say though, your suggestion that McGavran shouldn't comment on the issue seems a bit incongruous in light of the fact that McGavran himself wrote that he shouldn't comment on the issue. I think that McGavran is being pilloried for not treating the occasion of Core4D going subscription based with the deep solemnity that it apparently deserves. I dunno, if posters here hadn't spent two years or more verbally pelting shit at McGavran for overseeing a subscription program, maybe he would have reacted differently upon learning that Igor was now overseeing a subscription program. But the answer to this question will probably only be found by those who want to spend more long paragraphs, and probably many hours, interpreting a four sentence joke written by McGavran during the five seconds he probably had between coffees. Using metaballs (which Core spell check immediately wanted to change to 'meatballs') to make flames in Blender seems like a cool idea, and I've got to say the stuff I'm seeing coming out of Blender (for the artists who have mastered the app) is very high quality. I thought Blender already had a flame / fire option though? I'm sure I saw flames of some sort in a recent Blender demo.

Not my intention to condescend so sorry if it came across that way. I stand by the observation that the reaction to McGavran's one liner has been way over the top from a few here. I don't really know if it was in bad taste either. Igor brings in subs, McGavran posts well, I better not say anything then, and folks are affronted he even acknowledged the issue? Would you have preferred he write one of those long essay posts others have been doing expounding the difference between forum subscriptions and software company subs with a deep philosophical exploration of how each impacts us from day to day in our lives? Who would want to read that? Instead he acknowledges things with a cheery shrug, and a few people react like Trump had walked in here and suggested that the only thing that could fix C4D's outstanding issues was a wall. I get that the issue of subs remains touchy for a few, and C4D development remains touchy for others, but at a certain point I have to be honest. This is not really my problem. And seeing some of the members here treat bog standard forum posts like someone has poked them with a sharp stick does eventually - and we're talking years here now at this point - begin to get old.

Hopefully you can get over the incident and move on then. McGavran has people shit talk him for months (maybe years), and then he makes a funny, sardonic observation (like anyone might do down at the pub over a beer), and it's a war crime requiring a visit from the cops, or (maybe even worse) the HR department lady? Last time I checked the price difference between the sub and the annual upgrade that they used to have wasn't that much. This barely qualifies as Oliver Twist being evicted onto the street and forced to pick coins out of gutters to buy soup in the cold.