Leaderboard

I get the impression that there is a certain bias involved here. The number of users on this forum, is a small fraction of all Cinema 4D users, additonally users that see certain things as problematic are more likely to share their experience publically, leading to a heavy bias that might give an impression of the over all acceptance that does not match the actual degree. This is something that i learned early on in my over ten years as a moderator on CG Talk/CG Society and it is sometimes difficult for us to accept that the bubble we forums user work in is just one small part of the bigger whole. From Maxons POV, with a lot more detailed information on the acceptance of certain products, the situation shows itself likely very different to what we see on this forum. This means that even the most valid critique here must be compared and weighed against the benefits seen by others, as well as the actual cost/effort connected to it, the result of that might not be what users here expect. Another factor is time and effort. Many of the requests voiced here involve a much higher effort than most people would expect, this is especially true for offering product variations. As Rick pointed out, Cineversity access is directly connected to subscription, be it MSA or the new subscription, because it constantly offers new value, something that simply can not be offered without very high cost and effort for perpetual licenses. Tutorials can be argued to be documentation, so we can do that stuff on Youtube etc., but assets are a completely different animal, that is new value. This also prevents Maxon from adding any other new value to perpetual licenses. The situation has not changed with the new subscription, it was exactly the same with the MSA it replaced. Even with our strong hiring policy we have limits to the ressources we can invest in any issue, so we have to prioritize. Priorities are defined by an enormous amount of factors, of which public user requests are only one part. Long term strategy, technology driven must have changes (operating systems, hardware, ...), Ressource Matching, ... and many many more elements are in play here, most of which the users don't know and mostly don't care about. In the end we can only do so much in a day and what we do is heavily based on what our users want, but this forum represents only a small fraction of our users and from all i know not a very representative one. So if changes you want don't happen, or don't happen as soon as you expect them to, it is not because we did not listen, but because over all the priorities did not work out for these changes to become reality. My personal 2 cents on this from my pov of an over 20 years active Cinema 4D forums user (anyone from Postforum here?) and Maxon employee.

Apart from the C4D's development roadmap (and - to be fair to Rick and the developers - an argument could be made for the value of workflow as being equal to the value of tool development), what I would love to hear is a frank and honest discussion regarding whether or not the perpetual license holder factors into Maxon's long term revenue strategy. To be brutally frank, I believe it does not. Our business just does not matter to Maxon -- in fact, we are a bit of an annoyance. I would also say that belief is shared by a majority of its users. I come to that conclusion based upon how often that opinion is communicated, supported, and echoed in this forum's posts. So, as a company that listens, is it safe to say that Maxon is also aware of that perception? I would think so. So the big question then is this: Does Maxon care about the damaged relationship that exists with perpetual license owners? Again, I submit it does not. Proof of this is in Ricks last post: "we're in a position of wanting to give you consistent value as part of your subscription and an ever-growing asset library is one great thing we can give subscribers in addition to frequent feature upgrades." I guess concerns over giving consistent value to perpetual license holders does not exist. Every action by Maxon over the past two years to the perpetual license holders is moving in the opposite direction to the favoritism they are giving subscription customers. Honestly, it feels like coercion and that is what creates the friction. So, if Maxon is listening and does care about the perpetual license holder, then we can get into a good conversation about how to win back our good graces. To start the conversation going, I propose two ways: the most desired being a rent-to-own model. The second choice is listed below for those that are interested. Now, as stated before, I don't think Maxon does care so I do NOT expect an answer or a conversation. I only expect silence. But please understand that silence also provides its own answer as well. Dave One other option for Maxon if they do care about perpetual license owners: A reason for treating perpetual license holders differently than subscription license holders was blamed on Enron. In essence saying that SOX compliance rules (or Sarbanes-Oxley legislation passed in the US in 2002) and similar global licensing rules prevent Maxon from doing more for perpetual license holders. Well, all that is needed to support SOX compliance (as well as similar global laws) is to establish financial accounting records that are readily verifiable with traceable source data. So relative to giving back perpetual license holders their lost benefits, all that is needed is to create a new subscription product that just includes, technical support, Cineversity and Library Access and charge a deeply discounted price to get around those nasty accounting rules. Or you could discount the perpetual license cost by the amount you want to charge for extending technical support, Cineversity and library access for the perpetual license holder. Now both perpetual and subscription holders are treated almost equally -- the difference that subscription customers get mid year upgrades. Perpetual license holders also can forego all those goodies (Cineversity, libraries, tech support) if they so desire and thereby reduce the sting of paying 32% more than everybody else --- a great option in years where they feel the newest version does not warrant the full $950 USD upgrade price but they still want to stay current. And please do NOT throw the other argument about "the work to upgrade the license server for this new product is cost prohibitive". Please! It feels like Maxon has been putting more development effort into the license server than C4D over the past two years. Now, that is a cheap shot but you get my point -- the resources to upgrade the server are in place and I would imagine with all the work put into Maxon One, the ability to add new products just got a lot easier (I mean, that should be the whole point of Maxon One? Shouldn't it?).

I personally think the interface design is fantastic, and fixes some annoying space wasting issues. Now I can do most everything in the default layout without switching. Definitely feels more modern than some other apps I won't mention. I've used a variety of 3D software over the course of 20 years and you start to realize a couple universal truths, there will always be releases that aren't mind blowing (In every software. Check out some of the really lame releases Autodesk puts out.) and there will always be a vocal group who are dissatisfied with their current software. In the end, I enjoy using Cinema 4D and continually come back to it. Are there areas that I wish where improved? Absolutely. But I could say that about every 3d app out there. Anyway, just wanted give some kudos to the dev team for their hard work. I've really been loving the things going on with C4D the past few releases.

I think you personally Rick, gives us the extra excitement feeling that I used to feel for C4D back in the day. For these specific issues that have been discussed, I know the team is not to be blamed for this, since it is a higher up decision. C4D has become the awesome software it has over the years thanks to the support and innovation from you guys, so you will never see me blaming the team for this. For me, and maybe for others, it is a time to accept that the software is heading to a different direction than what we've expected/needed.. and well, it is a unfortunate call, but luckly there are options to make everyone out there happy with 3D making process. For those who will stay with C4D and continue to produce awesome work, and those who will adventure in some other options. But thanks for being a genuine nice person and keeping up with a good conversation/ acknowledgement.

I absolutely believe this. The Cg talk cinema 4d forum is basically dead thanks to the same two or three posters over there who turn every thread into an anti-Maxon / pro-blender rant. I can't think of a single successful artist who has that amount of time dedicated to being a forum troll.

I will continue to talk about new icons: As I understand the style was taken from Blender and Silo, but you did not take into account that in these applications the number of icons is much smaller, their interface is more "textual". This style imposes a limitation on the variety of icons, so it is not suitable for Cinema 4d, which has a huge number of icons. Here are some more examples of the new interface: - Volume and empty polygon have same icon - Camera and camera deformer have same icon - Emiter and point selection have similar icons - Many tag icons have become smaller and less readable, example Tracker tags The list goes on and on ... In Windows 8, Microsoft removed the start menu, then realized that it was a mistake, I hope Maxon understands that changing the icon style was a mistake.

I think you are giving us too little credit when it comes to understanding what "being listened to" really means. Most people here can easily make this distinction, and nobody is asking you to please all the customers of C4D at all time. But there is a consistent type of feedback, when it comes to the program's functionality and business model coming from a lot of your customers, from so many different places, that still remains after each update, and this"listening" that you mentioned, starts to fall a little short. Maybe it is Maxon who should re-evaluate what listening actually means: giving proper acknowledgement on issues that a large number of people here in this forum, Redshift forums and from other places are discussing constantly, and doing something about these issues, and not just giving us the "I am sorry that you feel that way" type of response. Giving us a roadmap on major problems the software still has, offering people actual options (not offering a perpetual license that you will drop bug fixes support after just 3 months!) Listening to people, and doing nothing about these constant issues, becomes just a PR tool of giving people this slight impression that there is a direct line of communication between a company and its customers, when in fact, this is far from reality.

I think the misunderstanding is that when people on the internet say that Maxon doesn't listen what they are actually saying is Maxon doesn't do what I say they should. Maxon does listen. We have open conversations, we read all the feedback whether it is pleasant or not, we go to trade shows, we put ourselves as employees out there (Hi Rick!). Then we take a massive amount of feedback and make the best decision that we can. That isn't the same as doing what a single customer says. That old saying... Can't please all the customers on Core 4D all the time, is I think how it goes. So we will always be happy to listen and at times we will disagree. But we are listening. Cheers Dave

Is now a good time to bring up Rent to Own? Honestly, if there was a program that said "after X consecutive years of subscription, you will be entitled to get the next release as a perpetual license for a nominal additional fee over the subscription price" I would say that is a win-win for everyone and all my arguments go away. Dave

This isn't the case. As the person responsible for Cinema 4D I feel the pressure every day from management and from customers to make the software better - to provide new and improved workflows to expand your artistic horizons and justify your continued subscription. The people I work with at Maxon are incredibly passionate about our products, and are regularly working before dawn, after sunset, on weekends and holidays to make the software better. The team keeps growing bigger, and a quick look at our careers page shows we're actively searching for more developers. If you know any quality C++ coders send them our way! I realize subscription isn't for everyone and some of you are disappointed, but frankly I'm getting tired of the accusation that we're all sitting back and relaxing when I and my colleagues are working harder than ever.

Because it is now possible. It was just a few years ago that software was shipped on CD's. Then USB sticks. Then bandwidth increased world wide to allow for the distribution of software over the internet and finally it became reliable to even allow online updating. With the advancement in cloud services like AWS, and automation tools to streamline development, you can now create a feature and potentially deliver it to customers instantly via an update. But the only way to make that a viable thing to do, you need to become a service. So you move to the subscription model to allow you to eventually push updates to users computers anytime you want. Delivering new features and content. This also frees companies from having to rigidly stick to a yearly release cycle. Allowing them to separate their companies into teams who are able to self manage and deliver content to the users without requiring a full company wide coordinated release strategy. This is how all major web based products work today. Streamlined, automated, able to deliver value to customers instantly at any time. Now this is moving into the "installed" software realm. This speeds up production, allows for greater flexibility in your planning schedules and will eventually allow for updating new features in C4D on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. Which is exactly what Maxon will be able to do now that they have Capsules and the new Scene Node system. Simply by delivering a bunch of assets via the Asset Browser can now give you new features to use in your work. And they can release those anytime they want.

As far as I can remember Perpetual users never got anything In the past, other than service packs with fixes. You bought your perpetual and that was it. Then they added the MSA which allowed them legally to provide additional content during the year in the form of plug-ins and training. And that could have even be thought of as a subscription.

I wouldn’t say there is a bulldozer attitude here from MAXON. So far it has just been Srek giving his views, Rick trying to answer questions and then you have the actual CEO here talking to everyone here! Come on now. The CEO! How much level of interaction do people want from a company? Just try and see if you can even get in contact with any human at Adobe! But I also agree with what Srek mentioned. Forums are a bubble. But I happen to like this bubble, same people always talking is fine with me. But we are a very small bunch of people here, at least the ones that actively post.

I agree. My discontent is not with the software or the development community. It never has been and I have gone out of my way to make that distinction. My discontent is how perpetual license holders are treated. And the response has been quite clear: Subscription license holders will ALWAYS get more benefits than perpetual license holders. That is the penalty for wanting to be able to use your software without having to pay for it over and over again. Now, I have been drawing heavily on the Adobe and Autodesk model in my arguments. I have even said that this is evidence of what could happen to subscription holders. No direct statements such as "This is what Maxon will do to you in the future --- so watch out!" were made but rather just showing what could happen based on the evidence to date from other companies. In fact, in all those discussions, I never mention Maxon. So as careful as those statements have been made, some assume it is bias against Maxon. Now what I find is interesting is this: Those who are making those comments about bias prove, by their own statements or license numbers (eg. R24), that they are NOT perpetual license holders. So of course they can sit back and claim bias because they are not feeling the pinch that perpetual license holders feel. Finally those who assume those are biased arguments against Maxon have failed in one area: providing evidence in their arguments that Maxon would NEVER behave like Adobe. I would love to hear those assurances because how perpetual license holders have been treated does not support that claim. So please, put my mind at rest: convince me that there will be no more lackluster releases. Convince me that perpetual license holders will no longer have services taken away from them (actually --- what more can we lose?). Convince me that Maxon wants the perpetual license holder to also have a rich and rewarding experience with C4D by considering rent-to-own models or other options that have been discussed. Convince me that Maxon wishes to pursue and grow a positive and long term relationship with the perpetual license holder. Show me that evidence by ACTION (as actions speak louder than words) and I will be the first to shout out that I was wrong about everything. In the absence of that evidence, simply saying we are biased is word salad and miss-direction (hmm....interesting cultural parallels going on here). So be honest. Put in the real work to make a positive argument based on data to make your case. Dave

Just a by-note. Today I had a meeting concerning communication and marketing related to an upcoming software release and everyone was: Man, you gotta present the UI! You put so much work in it, and everyone around here loves it. My response was simple: Sorry guys, just saw a new, very well thought out interface* gettin shred to pieces, just because people wanted other features, not UI/UX stuff. 😄 *) Although I have to say while the workflow-side of the new interface is great, I could argue about the undistinctive icon design. But I guess the interface designer said something like I did, too: Interface design isn't "do it, leave it". It's an ongoing process, heavily depend on the users input.

This is an interesting statement actually. The good old tactic of "you are part of a small group of people, thus your opinions are rendered useless" I think your elaborated statement also puts a whole different spin on "Maxon listens" type of affirmation. It is an obvious thing that people has different opinions about the software they use, and some (well, according to you, the vaste majority) dont have issues with the software, just us.. the vocal minority. That is actually very good and to be expected, people uses C4D for different reasons and concentrate on different resources the program offers. But I still wanted to believe somehow, that me and others, who have stated clear problems with the software and how things are working in general.. issues that have not been fixed for many releases, would be taken into account, you know.. as individual customers., and be respected and valued as such. But the bulldozer attitude that people from Maxon and Redshift seems to have towards any negative feedback, these attempts to disqualify, reducing the importance of our opinions, just because we are not many... it kinda puts a whole new perspective in this entire situation. The silverlining out of this is that this clear and more transparent mentality, the little peak on how Maxon actually see us, will save my time, and I believe, time from others here and other forums as well, from expressing our discontent with these declining quality of software updates, and invest our time into something else. So, thanks I guess.

maybe I just don't have access to all those MSA customers that where begging for higher perpetual prices, all those users that where fed up with their access to cineversity or those that where screaming for a new UI. as I said before, you are responsible for the reactions of your customers. If you don't like the reactions, then you can change something. But if you don't change anything, don't be upset by the reactions.

Maxon is here and listening and talking to customers. But the result is generally not a conversation. It was said that we stopped selling perpetual. I pointed out that is false. You respond that that means absolutely nothing. This does generally make it hard for us to have a good conversation 🙂 It is also relatively less conducive to a good conversation when you minimize the amazing and hard work of the team at Maxon. Here is just the list of things done in the last 3 months and in only 1 of the many products we make. Imagine if we added that for each product we updated in September. I know it is really hard to wish of the internet in modern times but wouldn't it be nice if we went back to discussing? Cheers Dave

R25 Full Change List https://support.maxon.net/hc/en-us/articles/4406578092690-Cinema-4D-R25-September-14-2021 NEW FEATURES AND ENHANCEMENTS User Interface Enhancements New modern scheme and updated icons New layouts Updated attribute layouts for easier and more intuitive access to key attributes Document Tabs - easily switch between open documents Layout Tabs - easily switch between layouts for different tasks New Layouts Switch - easily revert to old Cinema 4D layouts Window size and position maintained while switching layouts (ctrl to recall stored position) Fix Column and Fix Row options maintain the size of layout elements while resizing window / adapting to new resolutions Dynamic Palettes - icon palettes dynamically change based on document mode, active tool or active object type Shortcut sets in Command Manager Virtual Sliders on Numeric Attributes Numeric Attributes increment based on cursor position Option to expose any tag with the Object attributes New Coordinate Manager with Auto-Apply and Reset Transform Non-modal Color Chooser popup Snap and Soft Selection toolbar popups Variable size thumbnails in Material Manager Improved display of selected element in dropdowns New 3-point Viewport Lighting HDR/EDR Viewport Asset Browser Preset System Store presets within the Asset Browser, will category, keywords, smart search, previews and more Define multiple presets for any object, tag, tool or other Attribute Manager element Specify a default preset to be applied whenever the item is created Partial presets allow specific / selected attributes to be stored as presets Easily choose between stored presets or a specific Attribute Manager element Define presets for any Import / Export format Custom preset types for specific Cinema 4D content: Render Settings Viewport Filter* Timeline Filter Color Chooser Swatches, BodyPaint 3D Swatches & Brushes, Sculpt Brushes* Sketch & Toon* Icon Presets* User Data Interfaces Takes Bevels* Gradients* Spline UI* Sky Automatic creation of preview images for many preset types (marked above with an asterisk) General Asset Browser Improvements Place any asset within an icon palette for easy access Place Favorites or any Smart Search within an icon palette for easy access Popup mini-browser can be moved, or pinned open to add multiple assets Simple Mode provides easy access with minimal UI to specific categories or searches Option to Convert Legacy lib4d Content Browser libraries Improved Drag & Drop (object manager hierarchy, material manager, polygon selection, material links) Improved Spline Import Import Adobe Illustrator / PDF files Imports stroke and fill information Imports stroke/fill color with support for multiple color spaces and gradient fills Imports vector symbols embedded within artwork Import SVG Files Generate extrusions and sweeps to represent filled and stroked paths Offset paths parametrically based on layer and path order Update Illustrator files dynamically while keeping settings Capsules Use Capsule assets created in Cinema 4D's new Scene Node core within Classic Cinema 4D Primitives Object Groups Geometry Modeling and Selection Modifiers Tap into the power of Scene Nodes to add unique functionality within an Object Group or Geometry Modifier Group Scene Nodes / Scene Manager Splines Spline Primitives - 4-side Arc Circle Circular Arrow Cissoid Cycloid Flower Formula Helix Linear Arrow n-side Profile Rectangle Segment Star Text Scene Nodes Spline Core - Create Bezier splines with tangents Create B-Splines Create splines with Nurbs weighting Attach weight, color and other attributes to spline points Interpolate position and spline point attributes along spline Tesselate Splines with Adaptive, Subdivided, Natural or Uniform point distribution Output the length of a spline Line To Mesh Generator - Extrude, Loft, Lathe, Sweep operations Data Integration Import Data Node - CSV data import Get Member Node - get array from container by name/index Get Member Info Node - output an array of members within a container Sort Collection - sort all arrays of an array collection based on one array within the collection Command-line argument - parse a command-line argument as an input for Scene Nodes Data Assets Bar Graph Global Pins Utilities Hex to RGB Geoposition to Equirectangular Geoposition to Sphere DMS to Geoposition Angle to DMS Flightpath Spline Nodes and Node Assets Surface Blue Noise Distribution Surface-Scaled Blue Noise Distribution Calculate Curvature Create Normals Geometry Axis / Orientation / Resize Jitter / Jitter along Normal Smooth Geometry Transform Element Modulo Selection Select All Select by Weight To / From Barycentric Pivot Transform Node Editor Enhancements Improved modeling selection workflow with selection string parser Error highlighting, Info Area callout and improved Console error reporting Updated Modeling Selection Workflow with Selection Parser Store cached geometry within nodes Redshift Integration Updated Redshift Lights User Interface Convert standard lights to Redshift Lights KNOWN ISSUES Cinema 4D R25 will break plugin compatibility with the C++ API, and in some Python plugins. The Content Browser has been deprecated and removed. A new menu option in the Asset Browser allows users to choose a lib4d and convert to assets. There are three notes to know about Spline Import: SVG files from Inkscape currently will not load Layers >1 level deep are only supported when Illustrator files are saved without compression Path Names are not imported

So I have a face model, and I have 8 different hats, 8 glasses, and 8 beard models. I need to create random combinations of hat/glasses/beard on the face every frame, so that eventually every combination is used. Would love to get some help on that, and will be willing to pay if needed. Thanks!

Correct. All perpetual version of C4D ever made shipped with what they had. They never got any new "content" or "features". The only additional thing users got were the service pack updates, which contained bug fixes only.

from the top of my head no upfront cost very easy up and down scaling of seats by demand

Seriously dude.. you've been harping on this one subject throughout this whole thread. Rewording and retooling your argument isn't going to change the outcome. Nothing is going to change. In order for subscriptions to work, they need to cut out perpetual licenses, or make it so expensive or unbearable that people change, or they quit the software. Subscriptions are staying. More companies will go the subscription route, including other companies like Foundry and SideFX down the road. It's just inevitable. The bottom line is, if the subscription doesn't suit you, or you don't believe you're getting any benefit from it because the releases don't justify the cost, switch to something else. If you've switched to something else, then there's no need to keep hammering on Maxon about their subscriptions because you've clearly already made up your mind. This thread will hopefully evolve into one more meaningful regarding what CAN be added in future releases that were missing in this one versus the constant back and forth trying to drive around passive aggressive comments and overall hurt feelings. The release is out.. it's done. Let's focus on the future.

@srekI was a long-time Postforum user. Ha. Hadn't heard that site name in years.

I want to support everything you said today. You can express yourself much better than I can in a foreign language. But you nailed it. Thanks

i'm sorry, but this hardly qualifies as a conversation. notification would probably be a more appropriate term. in principle, it confirms my post above. The discussion just knows one direction. Funny how important the vivid community is in the marketing and how unimportant some few guys in there forum bubble are.

Absolutely. I'm here and I'm listening. Actually a lot of the little things that have come up here have made it into recent releases - some may not be 'big ticket' items but folks here absolutely had influence on the focus on UV tools in S22 and the animation improvements in R23. Sometimes issues are well known, but they're simply too complex to fix without tearing the whole engine apart and it's safer for now to live with them until we have a new engine to drop in. Other times we simply don't have the resources to tackle them or can't identify that they're affecting enough users to shift resources that direction. Pointing out areas you'd like to see improved and bugs you'd like to see addressed is always welcomed. As I mentioned I may miss these outside of release times simply because I'm busy but you're welcome to mention or DM me with specific feedback. I really just ask that you'd give the team the benefit of the doubt. Cinema 4D is our livelihood and our passion, and we're working like crazy to give you more powerful tools and workflows for creativity. The feedback you feel is being ignored is almost always heard and well recognized - it's just simply a matter of time and resources to get it addressed.

Let me just point out that this discussion has the attention of at least three Maxon employees that are all involved in defining what will change and what not, including the CEO and one of the Product Managers. Hardly what happens if we weren’t interested.

Rest is good! I can relate to your challenges AND your passion, although I am most definitely a hobbyist by comparison. I don't make my living from C4d. A release that doesn't address my needs doesn't affect my career like others here. I turned off my auto renewal in my Maxon account and will not be getting R25, falling back on R21 and U-Render. I'll take a second look at S26 when it releases.

I agree with SREK that development takes time and hard work. And I am a longtime (day in and out) C4D user (since 2004). It is my main software together with zBrush to make my art. However, when I saw the presentations of R25, the extras in this release are not very 'major' or 'game changing". That's why, I have not switched to R25 yet from R24, also forpractical reasons as I use a lot of third party scripts and plugins. But comparing Maxon to Adobe or Autodesk for instance or to Blender for that matter, is ridiculous. I am waiting for a new release of Cinema and maybe they finally will do something about that ancient Bodypaint. So that I do not have to go to other paint applications.

I think you are confusing people who have negative opinions about something, with forum trolls. And attaching a level of success (or whatever your definition of success is) to the possibility of someone having an opinion that is not absolute praise towards the software they use, is as shortsighted as your statement above. Personally speaking, I am 100% happy with my career, the clients I have and projects I've done. But that still gives me time to express my discontent when I feel that a company is not actually listening to customers feedbacks and tricking its customers with anti-consumer practice. It is actually quite possible to be vocal about something, either be positively or negatively, and still have a "successful" career. You should try!

While it does feel that there is a new world of possibilities opening, It is now really confusing what is a normal hierarchy object and what is node and what is material and what is cross compatible Edit: It seems like there was a bug where the Scene root was not visible and the node graph was locked which greatly confused me, switching the scene fixed it ------------------------------------------------------ NODES FEEDBACK: What I found highly confusing is that the right click context menu does not allow you to search nodes. This is clearly the by far fastest way to work with nodes, right click and search, infinitely superior towards clicking the asset browser, searching, scrolling, dragging into view, similar to how other node editors work - but it only allows input and output right now, so its confusing me on top as I search for things which I then can't find. Also what does an input and output even do? The entire design right now is far too abstract and perpendicular to how cinema works. Im a senior artist, game designer, technical artist to a degree, can code but I'm not a data oriented tech engineer who can see through some cutting edge new concepts mixed with older concepts in a freestyle unique way The input comes from where? Data? Fed through what? Where do I input the data? The Output goes where? Theres no object. This is for subgraphs I assume. Why can I then put these on my main scene graph? Where is my node graph in my scene? How do I group, copy, use a graph if it dosn't physically exist in cinema? Where does the output go? Its way too abstract. I'm working in the void. I have an empty scene with a graph in the void, which displays something in the void I can't touch. How do I make 2 if I can't touch it? How do I save it? Is my scene my node graph container? Is my graph canvas a separate hierarchy? Is my scene root not the same as an output on the scene node highest level? So many questions A graph should to have a physical form in cinema, in the hierarchy. This is how cinema works. Each node graph should be started and edited within a node graph object that is clearly visible in the hierarchy, even if its a null that shows only the bare basics. I should be able to create a node graph like any other object. This way you can also have them parallel and have their 0,0,0 center of the object. Your scene should not be misused as an object contrary to everything else. Then the opposite, why can I add node operators into my hierarchy but they don't show in the Scene nodes given they are nodes? Im sure it makes sense to not show it for some reason but its very confusing. An alternative would be to add a button "Create new Node graph" which is a group, or have each scene start with a "New node graph" group and then let users click on and start in that group. This way you have at least an object to give some structure to where they are and that they create something that is not in a void, where its clear that the input and output goes outside the group, and not start on top level which is highly misleading and confusing. Right now its like the object manager / hierarchy would be a cube you can edit. Also some of the tools are super confusing right now, the cloner operator I just can't figure out. I expect to input a cube and get a grid of clones, like C4D usually works. The matrix has all things a cloner usually dosn't have but no amount for clones. I can't try for 20 minutes and then give up to make clones. C4Ds power was always the usability and the UI. I see the potential here and it clearly has power but this needs an UX pass desperately. By writing this essayI slowly start to understand but the first impressions were rather devastating, this is way too heavy and abstract right now 1. Right click needs to be able to search for nodes to speed up the workflow 2x 2. Scene Graphs should to physicalized in the hierarchy to remove the extra dimension of abstraction, or at least rename to Scene Node hierarchy and create a New Node Graph by default, which users can click and start inside, so structure becomes clear. I need to understand in which space I am moving, where it is, starts and ends. 3. Node connections and types need to be more clear 4. The asset browser needs icons, all gray folders are not very helpful 5. Nodes need at least simple tooltips, all C4D features have full documentation 6. Nodes need better coloring, Node operators can be used in hierarchy and look exactly like Nodes which can't be I hope this helps and I'm looking forward to the completion of the new core, overall 25 looks like an important step forwards but it needs some changes. Also the new UI is a little too high contrast but layout wise similar to my personal one. I would just love if you could turn off the animation elements on the bottom not only the timeline

I have said from the beginning that subscribers would be seeing additional benefits over perpetual users. Cheers Dave

We'll be continuing efforts to improve workflows that are important to our customers, to deliver quality-of-life improvements and new procedural options to create compelling graphics and animations. It's always tricky to balance openness with expectations - the roadmap doesn't always pan out the way you expect. Sometimes in a good way. Sometimes you acquire two companies and merge with a third in the span of a couple of years and plans shift a bit. Sometimes things take longer than you expect (actually they almost always take longer than you or I expect). Cinema 4D is a really broad and deep application that touches a lot of workflows. None of them are forgotten, but we have to prioritize, and in some cases there's building blocks we have to get in place before we can tackle a given workflow or feature.

Yes, and I have absolutely nothing against you as a private person and I like to look back to this evening. But I have to accept that even though I told you about all this problems and feelings that come up now, right in the beginning, absolutely nothing has changed. You now take 175€ for a perpetual license transition? Look the only person that can change the way your customers feel and therefore react is you. As long as you squeeze them they will squeak. And even though I'm not proud of the tone of my last post, that I wrote while I was tired and hungry. I unfortunately think that it basically is true. And I find this disappointing. I think that giving a hard but honest feedback is much harder than just be cheering, but it never the less is no sign of antipathy. If i wouldn't love C4D and If I haven't met you I might just don't care. But this way I just don't understand. I think and already postet it, that capsules is super promising and I find it very shortsighted by many to not realize that. And I just can imagine what a fight it is to power through the new core and I adore this effort, but I find it hard to understand why it is important to at the same time fight your customers. best regards Jops

I think the new icon design is Maxon's failure. Most of the icons are similar to each other, and without textual accompaniment, it is impossible to understand which tool is attached to them.Past icons were more intuitive.

mr. gavran if you really open to conversion i have a question. whats about cinemas course for future? any plans any route? cinema4d developement plans willignore sclutp, body paint, particles and other tools? or will take care for them too? there is game industry and other areas that needs that tools. even small company like marmoset takes way to be a painter for models in future. blender cares sclupt and other programs do different improvoments for those areas in several industries. so we can hear what thinks maxon? or future plans open for only investors? if maxon share some future plans to customer, i think many of us will become more relaxed and patience. we dont need to corporate secrets of maxon. just few info and roatmap.

We also didn't sell a perpetual for C4D S24 but that doesn't mean we stopped selling perpetual C4D. As I have said from the beginning the subscription model means we can deliver more and regular updates too subscribers. In the past Red Giant never had 2 major releases in a year for perpetual users. Cheers Dave

unfortunately thats not the priority anymore. They care about money. Even when they try to compensate it with very mediocer marketing blah blah (sorry, but it is true). That Money benefits mainly the managers that get Bonuses and the mother companies shareholders. For the normal employer (that might even hang around here) this brings not much more but worse mooded customers. And for the Customers it is tiring to always be taken for a fool. By statements like the "This is just untrue..." further up (marketing blah blah). Maxon can easily write a disclamer on the website that just explanes the situation clear and true and let the customer decide on real facts instead of info snippets that lures customers to buy or rent and lets them hang out to dry when they realise that they gave away their perpetual license for some month of subscription for example. Maxon more and more feels like a used car dealer where you have to crawl under the car and check everything they say, if that was the whole truth and after buying find out what they didn't tell you or what you didn't find. that for example functionality was removed without exchange. let mi try a true text example (I give Maxon the allowance to use it or get inspirited by it): you can Buy a perpetual version of C4D: that means you get the last R version that was released and maybe one bugfix update after 3 month or so. All features that are defined as beta or tech demo stay beta or tech demo. further you will not get any other update or bugfix whatsoever. you don't get access to cineversity or any other features that are subscription only. the perpetuity of the license might be limited by the accessibility to the activation server. or you can rent C4D with a subscription: subscription is cheaper, you get access to the latest version of C4D and all features that are subscription right now for example cineversity. These services might change while you are subscribed. you are not entitled to a defined amount of developement that goes into C4D nor any amount or type of feature. If you stop subscription you loose access to your files and there is no way to access these files again without resubscribing or buying a perpetual license. No matter how long your subscription was. If you are unhappy with the way C4D develops you can do basically nothing without loosing access to you files. You might complain in forums, but that has proven to be of little effect. of course this is just a example of a no Bullshit text 🙂 If it should sound nicer without adding bullshit or removing truth maxon of course just could change their offers that are described in the text.

Those selection examples in one of the videos above look pretty juicy though, and available immediately, so I wouldn't necessarily consider it not a feature yet.

I think the biggest problem is the lack of "listening" from McGavran and senior leadership. Pretty confident that the developers know what needs to be done but it is management that makes the call and while they say they are hearing us, it is obvious that they are not listening. How do you look at R25's features and go "yeah --- this is what the users want! Let's make these four features a half-point release!" I am pretty sure warning flags were raised within Maxon about this release - but no one "listened". Not sure what happened last year to get us to this point. Plus, people no longer want to hear that Maxon is still implementing the core. That excuse is wearing thin. Was it scene nodes that sucked up all the resources over the last year? If so, is that the right strategy to put all your eggs in that basket? If that is Maxon's strategy, then they need to assess where they are with scene nodes after more than a year. What is the adoption rate by the users? Even if it is a "tech demo" (a nice term to launch a big effort without setting any expectations for deliverables), who is making scene node tutorials other than Maxon? I only found 11 on YouTube and 5 of those were from Maxon. The other 6 came from EJ, Chris Schmidt and LFO. That's it: 3 people after a whole year. Where are the user posts on all the great things with scene nodes? Are their any great examples of scene nodes on the Maxon web-site? I mean after a year or more, I would have expected more. Scene nodes may not be the big feature draw that Maxon hopes for as parametric modeling is hard no matter how clean the interface is made. Those who want to master it will go to Houdini rather than wait for C4D as Houdini's indie version is cheaper and it vastly more powerful. Yeah...I have no idea where McGavran is driving C4D because it is apparent he is not listening to his customers. Honestly, as an Adobe guy he is probably more at home with Red Giant than he is with Redshift or C4D. You always play to your strengths and people in leadership will always focus first on what they know before they tackle what they don't know. That is human nature. Well, I am getting the sinking feeling that 3D is not one McGavran's strengths. Dave

As EJ says: "I think this is going to be one of the most talked about releases in a very long time..." LOL!

The Maxon R25 web-page is now up. So on this page you can filter what is new by the following categories: Create, Animate, Render and Workflow. Create -- Empty. Nothing to see here. Please move on. Animate -- Another complete goose egg of nothing. Render -- Okay....I think there is a pattern here of nothing and now we have three strikes. Workflow -- Hooray! Something! Five things of something: UI, Capsules, Spline Import, Asset Browser, and Scene Manager. Now the asset browser add on seems like something that missed the R24 bus -- but when you are starving, you'll eat anything. Now the time between R24 and R25 was a bit shorter, but look at what Blender can get done in that same amount of time. So where did all the energy go? Dave