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Is now a good time to bring up Rent to Own? Honestly, if there was a program that said "after X consecutive years of subscription, you will be entitled to get the next release as a perpetual license for a nominal additional fee over the subscription price" I would say that is a win-win for everyone and all my arguments go away. Dave

I'm still a Cinema 4D user and have been since R14; however, I won't upgrade past R22 due to the subscription model and the higher cost of upgrading a perpetual license, which used to be fairly reasonable. I'm not here to complain, talk about Blender, or tell people they are wrong for liking subscriptions. I just wanted to mention that other companies successfully offer both subscriptions and perpetual licenses without alienating perpetual users, in case others aren't aware of any examples. Toon Boom, the industry's leading 2D animation software company, offers both options for its Harmony software and has for years, and they even do this while offering three product tiers (Essentials, Advanced, and Premium). Also, their pricing is very transparent on their website for both options. I bought a Premium perpetual license in 2017 for around $2,000, and I've happily paid for a perpetual upgrade every year since for around $315, even if the updates aren't always extensive. I like the software and want to support it. While they can't count on this income as reliably as subscription income, I still think they should be able to forecast revenue based on the number of people who typically upgrade each year. Also, there is no difference between subscription and perpetual users. Everyone has access to the same training site and updates. I was happily on the same upgrade path with Cinema 4D (bought in at around $3,000 in 2013 and happily paid around $650 per year until 2020). My perpetual upgrade to R23 jumped to $999, a $349 increase, while losing access to Cineversity, which I still don't understand how this makes sense other than to discourage people from buying a perpetual license. I felt like it was unreasonably expensive to continue upgrading based on what I was getting compared to what I received in the past for a lesser price. I think a lot of the people complaining are just really passionate about Cinema 4D and want to know that others feel the same way. They have dedicated a good portion of their time learning it, probably after doing a great amount of research about which 3D package to use and deciding that it was worth spending several thousands of dollars on purchasing it. They also probably felt like they were part of a community that included the company (even if communication was/is typically a one-way street), but have now realized that the company is like any other company. This is just the way things are. Autodesk people went through the same thing when SoftImage was discontinued and all of their products went to subscription. Modo users felt the same when Luxology was purchased by The Foundry. I would imagine Redshift users are also feeling a bit burned. I think it is just hard to realize that at some point, no matter what you felt, that you are just a customer.

Rick, If you will notice, I rarely make specific conclusions regarding what the development community is doing -- especially at Maxon. I instead focus on the business and market forces which subscriptions create and the decisions those forces drive other companies like Adobe, Autodesk, etc to make. Remember that you yourself said that rather than wait for more to be added to R25 before it was released, the decision was made to get the tools already developed into users hands. Well, that logic really benefits subscribers more so than perpetual license holders. So you can see how subscriptions change and/or modify the decision making process and that is what I am calling out. Subscriptions change how decisions are made -- decisions that may even be out of your control -- which are not always advantageous to perpetual license holders. I know you work hard at Maxon along with the entire development community. I mean if that were not the case, we would not care what Maxon did with C4D -- but C4D is awesome based on your hard work and that is why we care. But please factor in the perpetual license holder into your day to day planning. We are slowly being squeezed out by Maxon from having any relevance at all. We don't get libraries, we don't get Cineversity, we don't get more than 3 months of technical support and now we are losing access to our executables. And we pay 32% more then everyone else for this type of treatment! These are not your decisions but they all add up to being pretty hard to take. I have empathy for your position and respect the contributions you and the rest of the developers make on a daily basis in growing C4D. All I ask is that you have the same empathy for the perpetual license holder and respect for our concerns with the direction of C4D given what we have seen subscriptions are doing to other platforms. The actions taken by Maxon against perpetual license holders do nothing to alleviate any of these concerns and you need to understand and respect that. With all due respect, Dave

Why can’t we agree on this: * Offering subscription licensing only, will alienate some, if not a lot of faithful old customers. Especially those who do not have a steady stream of money coming in, but instead plan their business on a per project basis, or have a non-profit use of the software. * Offering perpetual subscription licensing only will prevent occasional users to try the software in production, and will be less attractive to teams where artists are hired on a temporary basis. * A software company offering both a subscription licensing and perpetual licensing will serve most, if not all customers. The interesting topic here is why we can’t have both? Seems like we eventually end up with just one of these options. Why? The most serious case is when Boris first acquires Mocha, then stops the license server for Mocha, thereby preventing me from upgrading my PC. (I cannot move Mocha from old to new computer). Who in this forum supports such behavior? I had hoped that you guys would be interested in this phenomenon in general, why on earth the subscription model is becoming so prevalent. Because it is hard to find any benefits for the customers, going for subscription only. As an alternative, definitely. But only subscription? No. -Ingvar

By 'everything' I mean software, with people able to dive in to using the software with a minimal upfront or ongoing cost, rather than dumping thousands of dollars into getting things going. I don't remember referencing home or auto ownership, and it's unlikely a conversation on a software forum about a software release would make reference to such, but you drag them in because a software sub is clearly a 1984-style reference to something much more ominous, womp womp. Some years back I pissed away a couple of grand buying CS4 outright from Adobe, only to learn that the minimal specs were fudged and the CS4 pack as a whole was buggy as hell. Now if I want to get going with After Effects or Premiere I can just pay the monthly sub, and if circumstances change I can slip back out of it without feeling I poured all my savings down the toilet. Amazing how the term 'slave-scription' comes up about software where there's a greatly reduced cost of entry and folks can dump it and leave it at the drop of a hat, versus the ostensible bigger freedom where you had to burn thousands of dollars to get a foot in the door, and changing course any time after would make you feel you'd wasted a crate of money. I think you have things backwards. Your endless screeds about the necessity of software ownership always seem to pertain to some hypothetical circumstance at the end of one's career where a user wants to spend their Golden Years not working, but endlessly tinkering about with the software they bought five years earlier, and never notes the feelings or circumstances of students, casuals or the unemployed who don't have thousands to dump at the time they want to get everything going. But this seems characteristic of your posts, which also make syrupy reference to the 'golden years' of Maxon when they made bugger all public statements about their roadmap, but now feels affronted by their behaviour when they make frequent public announcements about software in beta and have regular Youtube chats describing where various new features are going. Again, this is a real head scratcher for anyone with a modicum of logic or common sense, but characteristic of many of your posts. I'll grant you your commentary here isn't as crazed as some of the CG Talk commentary, where even you eventually calmed down a tad. There is always Blender of course, yet the most vocal folk who have jumped ship across to it still seem mighty sore and unhappy with their lot, and return again and again to remind us how aggrieved they are with life. FFS - get over it and move on. I'm sure I had this whole back and forth rant about subs with you either two or three years ago. Yet I mention two years later how good I think the subscription process is, and even though you've 'moved on' to Blender, you're still salty and taking pot shots at people who feel different to how you do. If you're still posting rants about how terrible a C4D sub is in 2023 or 2024 - and as with the other folks who jumped ship, I can probably already set my watch and take bets that you will -it will say far more about you than it does the users, C4D or Maxon.

It is a business. I hope they are caring about money. Money is what pays every employee their wages so that they can continue to work. And I highly doubt there are any managers getting bonuses. Also Maxon is no longer just a C4D company. They now have a very large portfolio of products. And all the business decisions now span a much wider market. I understand why perpetual C4D customers may not be that overwhelmed by this (and the previous S24) release. But for users on the subscription it means absolutely nothing. Just keep on working, use S24 or S25 if they have features you need and if you want to adjust your workflow, otherwise stick to S23 to R21. For the price of a new perpetual license today you could be on a sub for almost 5 years. I wonder how many customers would still even consider purchasing a perpetual these days. Doesn't make much sense. My last perpetual was R21 (and I own everything back to R17). However, I am a registered developer and do get access to the Beta versions. But for everything I would ever do R21 is perfectly fine for my purposes. I even do all my development in R21 (I only use newer versions to test compatibility). If I do leave the developer program I would loose my access, but then I would only get a sub if there was some feature that I really wanted to use. But in most cases there are other tools that already fill the gaps I would need anyway. Not sure what I am really getting at here other than to say businesses need to stay profitable and customers should do what is right for them. But for the past few years I keep seeing the same arguments and comments being thrown at Maxon every release. How much longer will people keep saying the same things? When it comes to business if something doesn't suit your needs then quickly move on. Although I have been annoyed at many companies for the direction they have taken, I understand it is just business, not a personal vendetta against me personally. Companies get bigger and have to get their big boy pants on and make hard decisions that will affect some of their user base, that is inevitable. But hopefully the decisions that Maxon has made will allow it to prosper and continue to expand, grow larger, get a bigger community and potentially one day dominate over their competition (Autodesk, The Foundry and maybe even Adobe). I say good luck to them and I am happy I could have helped and will be sticking around to take this journey with them until such time as my life takes me in a different direction.

Just because I am not agreeing with you, or pointing out some affirmations that does not convey what the situation really is for us customers, it does not mean that this is not an actual conversation. I am pretty sure that the opposite is prefered, praises and no negative feedback.. but I am conveying what the general feeling from most of us users of C4D feel about all this, in a respectful manner. I am pretty sure Maxon is listening to its customers, but doing something about these feedbacks... about this backlog of complaints from the past years, regarding not only the business method, but also the funcionality of the software, the many shortcomings it still has... it is a different story. For instance, where in the previous posts and topics, not only in this forum but in any other, a large number of users were complaining about C4D's interface? This was actually one of the very best things it had, and I am sure this one is great too thanks to the hardwork of the developers, but why was this a priority, on top of so many other major issues the software currently has? And I know that there is this "we are still offering perpetuals" as a choice, but when you remove a great number of advantages of owning a perpetual software from Maxon, and put them all in subscription only...and only offers a 2 max update/bug fixes for a perpetual softwares, that is not really a choice you are offering is it?

This isn't the case. As the person responsible for Cinema 4D I feel the pressure every day from management and from customers to make the software better - to provide new and improved workflows to expand your artistic horizons and justify your continued subscription. The people I work with at Maxon are incredibly passionate about our products, and are regularly working before dawn, after sunset, on weekends and holidays to make the software better. The team keeps growing bigger, and a quick look at our careers page shows we're actively searching for more developers. If you know any quality C++ coders send them our way! I realize subscription isn't for everyone and some of you are disappointed, but frankly I'm getting tired of the accusation that we're all sitting back and relaxing when I and my colleagues are working harder than ever.

Apologies to everyone for beating an old drum, but let me explain again why hobbyists hate subscriptions more than professionals. And it all boils down to 2 points so it should not be that hard for anyone to grasp. Point 1) The biggest downside of subscriptions is that it provides a source of locked in revenue for the software company. You stop subscribing, you lose access to your work -- so you keep subscribing to keep working. That is why you are locked in revenue. Point 2) As a hobbyist I have a strong desire to continue to have access to my work. That connection is not as strong for professionals because their connection to their work ends as soon as they get paid. Should the client want to change it in the future, they get paid again. So it is easy for them to jump in and out of a subscription model because they loose nothing. But hobbyists want to revisit what they have done in the past in case they learn something new that will make that scene better. Personally speaking...everything I do is a WIP as I am always reworking it. That is part of the fun and learning process. So here is why those two points make hobbyists unwilling to accept subscriptions. Point 1) If companies have a big percentage of their revenue locked in, there is less pressure to compete. Software companies compete on updating features, fixing bugs, providing new features, staying relevant in the marketplace. History has shown (especially with Adobe, 3DS Max and now R25) that companies are less concerned about what negative reactions they could receive from lackluster releases. Now, this behavior will NOT increase market share but for mature programs in a mature industry, there really is not that much NEW market to grab - or certainly not enough to warrant the investments required to improve the program to capture that market. But every company CEO still needs to increase profit year-over-year (his/her bonus depends on it) and therefore the best way to do that is to cut back on expenses. Unfortunately, in the software world their biggest expense is people. This all adds up to the conclusion that NOT only does subscriptions remove companies from the need to compete on features, it supports the means by which companies can layoff developers and increase profits. Major point being: Do not be surprised by lackluster updates once a company adopts a subscription model. Point 2) So eventually, based on the reasoning in Point 1, there is a good chance that each new release within a subscription model will fail to meet the user's needs in one way or another. Bugs persist and desired features get ignored. Pretty soon all users realize that they are just renting the software to use it -- paying over and over again with no noticeable improvements. They are not even renting to own. For professionals, that may not be a big deal because their connection to the software is job based. But remember that hobbyists have a connection to their work so if they are fed up with just renting and exit the subscription model, they loose everything or have to go through the additional work of exporting and importing in the painful switch to a new platform. That is why we like perpetual licenses -- if the update is not worth our money, we don't buy it and keep going. Nothing is lost. Unfortunately, Maxon is even making holding onto perpetual licenses harder given that they are removing access to the executables for past versions so now our life with C4D is restricted to our hardware. Is it just me, or do others feel that the old pre-subscription and pre license server model offered us more freedoms with our purchased software? And are those freedoms slowing being removed each year? Dave Oh....and if you love freedom the way I do, then I cannot say enough good things about the Blender training in this course --- now on SALE again:

If software customers were of the same kin, sure. Please read my long post further up in this thread. Maybe you’ll get a more nuanced view regarding this. Practically, what you say is that software is only for those who have a steady stream of money coming in, for those who never retire. I will soon retire, professionally. So, the subscription model means no more multimedia for me, if I had chosen the subscription model. As it is now, I can continue using C4D for my non-profit projects, as long as the Maxon licensing servers are running. Another example: I have purchased, and upgraded the Mocha planar tracker several times. Perpetual license. But in the meantime, Boris has acquired this product. And of course turned it into subscription. Now, I still have the perpetual license I paid for, right? Well, if I upgrade my hardware, there is no way uninstall and unregister Mocha in the old machine, and reinstall and register it again on the new machine. Because Boris does not allow this. And I used to like Boris and their products, have paid for some too.. Please consider this too, when you are so sure about the benefits of subscription. -Ingvar

I like and respect everyone on this forum. And I read every message that is posted. I personally don’t have any other connections to any users in any other medium. This site is it for me. So I really enjoy the conversations here and see both sides of all arguments. So far this time round it has been quiet polite really. No overly aggressive comments, which is great to see. We are all professional adults here just doing our thing. And with COVID out there, and no real events to go to, this forum is a great place for people to come to. So everyone just keep on typing. Lots of us here are reading along and happy to discuss all topics.

We'll be continuing efforts to improve workflows that are important to our customers, to deliver quality-of-life improvements and new procedural options to create compelling graphics and animations. It's always tricky to balance openness with expectations - the roadmap doesn't always pan out the way you expect. Sometimes in a good way. Sometimes you acquire two companies and merge with a third in the span of a couple of years and plans shift a bit. Sometimes things take longer than you expect (actually they almost always take longer than you or I expect). Cinema 4D is a really broad and deep application that touches a lot of workflows. None of them are forgotten, but we have to prioritize, and in some cases there's building blocks we have to get in place before we can tackle a given workflow or feature.

Yes, and I have absolutely nothing against you as a private person and I like to look back to this evening. But I have to accept that even though I told you about all this problems and feelings that come up now, right in the beginning, absolutely nothing has changed. You now take 175€ for a perpetual license transition? Look the only person that can change the way your customers feel and therefore react is you. As long as you squeeze them they will squeak. And even though I'm not proud of the tone of my last post, that I wrote while I was tired and hungry. I unfortunately think that it basically is true. And I find this disappointing. I think that giving a hard but honest feedback is much harder than just be cheering, but it never the less is no sign of antipathy. If i wouldn't love C4D and If I haven't met you I might just don't care. But this way I just don't understand. I think and already postet it, that capsules is super promising and I find it very shortsighted by many to not realize that. And I just can imagine what a fight it is to power through the new core and I adore this effort, but I find it hard to understand why it is important to at the same time fight your customers. best regards Jops

I think the new icon design is Maxon's failure. Most of the icons are similar to each other, and without textual accompaniment, it is impossible to understand which tool is attached to them.Past icons were more intuitive.

listening in the sense of reading yes. listening in the sense of trying to understand and find a solution .... no. And therefor you are right, the result is generally not a conversation.

I'm very sure about the benefits of subscription to me. There will always be cases where circumstances have others getting a worse deal. You've explained some logical reasons why subs don't suit you, and fair enough. Hey, at least you're not like IceCaveMan, going into full ATTACK MODE at people who hold a differing opinion.

I've never understood the subscription hate. And I suffered through most of IceCaveMan's rants on the topic, along with the crazy house nattering of the guy at CGTalk who apparently left for Blender but is still first in line to post a negative thousand word rant every time Maxon scratches their head. When R30 comes out in 5 years time he'll still be giving everyone updates on how Maxon apparently murdered his dog or wrecked his Toyota or something. Everything should be on subscription. Which I guess should make me happy as pretty much everything is now anyway. Maxon's might be pricier than some others but I can still track the near future date I'll be jumping into it wholehearted down to the month, whereas with their old pricing the broke hobbyist was left contemplating the likelihood of a Tattslotto win to get going. I agree though that from the sound of it people that own earlier versions may as well wait until things look compelling before they need (if ever) to re sub or re purchase.

These long dumb rants keep missing the point. They’re still doing the big core rewrite/redo, and things won’t settle down until they’re done. And it started years before McGavran took over, so don’t blame him.

Some of you may have noticed that the odd thing is different in R25, so thought it might be an idea to share some top tips people may not have discovered yet... feel free to add any you find, but here's couple to start you off... 1. Can't tear off the snap menu ? The new snap settings at the top of the toolbar is not moveable, but some of us wish it could be. And indeed it still is - simply press 'P' to get your freely moveable / dockable one. 2. Where is Reset PSR ? Now called Reset Transform that's now in the Coordinates Manager or at the bottom of the r-click menu in Object Mode. Coordinates Manager now available by default in Modelling layout, or via lower right corner in standard. 3. Where has MoText gone ? Now just called Text Object, this is available from the toolbar on the right under T symbol, along with the Text Spline. 4. Where the hell is Physical Sky ? Worry not, it's just in the Lights Menu ! CBR

I think people are over analyzing things. As I see it, Cinema 4D is a service now, and that service is providing software that is always kept up to date and working to the highest standards, a service people will pay for. They don't really want permanent licenses out there, and have therefore priced them out accordingly. I think Maxon has made it pretty clear their roadmap from here on out is all Scene Nodes all the time, until everything currently possible in Cinema is converted to Scene Nodes. So what possible incentive could Maxon have to spend any resources adding or improving features that they are actively working to make obsolete with new and vastly more versatile Scene Node driven features. Cinema 4D is in a rebuilding mode and have been pretty up front about this. It's up to users to decide if the software as offered meets their current needs enough to go along for the ride.

It's funny - just before Maxon cancelled the Prime edition, I stood on the precipice of purchasing it for hobby work. That didn't work out 😉 But yes, an indie version like the Houdini one would most definitely be a good thing for hobbyists, and also important to keep the millennials on-board for a fresh intake of younger new C4D 3D users. I also started a Houdini course a few days ago, and the Indie version is actually quite affordable for what is on offer. A non-commercial educational version will probably not be enough to attract new users or keep them from running to other alternatives: the 3DS Max forums experience(d) an exodus to Blender the past few years.

Certainly not trying to be dismissive of anyones thoughts or feelings. I too have my whole career and living wrapped up in Cinema, as well as Vectorworks - made by the same company and releasing new versions of both softwares in the same week this year. I am passionate about the future of Cinema4d and sure, there are things I'd like to change and things I'd like to see different. Am I thrilled about the Maxon App - not really. Do I like the concept of subscriptions - not really. I give constructive feedback on the user experience when I can, I submit problematic files, and have dialogue with tech support. But I'm not speculating on the inner workings of the company or their intensions based on remarks from a company guy, trying to talk to the community, over the internet. Be pissed and speak your mind - I'm all for it: Just don't do it with tin foil on your head.

There is this dismissive tone I just dont get it. "It is just a software"? it is a software that is costing us A LOT of money, offering us little advancements and updates, ZERO listening to users feedback, completely ignoring all the REAL problems the software has, offering in exchange freaking gimmicks, improvements that nobody asked for... so what, we are supposed to be quiet, behave like good subsurvient users and be mindful of our "mental health"? This exact same tone can be seen on Redshift forums.. treating costumers like entitled babies. We are customers, we pay a lot for this, we are allowed to be pissed if all the things we request for the software we are PAYING for is being intentionally ignored. And so far, people here have been respectful towards each other (well, minus one kid...) but it doesnt mean we cant be honest about how we feel about the software we have invested thousands of dollars, and years of our lives. I've said it before and I will say it again. If this pathetic excuse of an update doesnt affect you, then, good for you. But dont diminish other people's complaints just because it doesnt personaly affect you (This works for a lot of other things in life too)